A few additional thoughts.

1. You probably should directly ask the author to reconcile his opinion with ProPokerTools.

2. While I wouldn't call 3456 "trash" in a full game and although it ranks better full table than short handed, the hand is better than average short handed. (But if you play it to showdown
every time in a full game, you will often lose with the second best hand).

3. I didn't address the question of why the hand simulates better for full tables than for short handed tables. Different kinds of hands are winners for high at full tables than when short handed. For full table no fold 'em simulations, two pairs rarely wins for high. For short handed no fold 'em simulations, two pairs often wins for high.

3456 does have decent low potential for a short handed game, but it lacks high card strength for a short handed game. When you're short handed, especially one-on-one, in addition to decent low potential, you like high card strength, aces and kings.

Buzz

QJT9ds...Some call the hand great; others call it "marginal trash".

Currently I only open at button to steal blinds. Or call at BB when facing a raiser plus a caller.

So, if this is a playable hand at all how and in what spots to play with?

How many opponents do you have, and how well do they play? Are you playing pot-limit, no-limit, or fixed-limit?

Heads-up the hand lacks high card strength (no aces or kings) and the hand has no chance at low. In showdown simulations (nobody folds) the hand fares better at full table.

The game is Omaha-8, a form of poker. In poker, you always should be playing your opponents (as they should be playing you).

As starting hands go, I think QJT9ds is relatively poor. That is, probably two thirds of the starting hands you'll be dealt in a full game are better. And probably four fifths of the starting hands you'll be dealt heads-up are better... something like that. I'd call the hand "marginal at best" as a starting hand.

But if you can see the flop cheaply and if your opponents play poorly and will pay you off when QJT9ds ends up as the winning hand, and if you get a favorable flop, you can play the hand, even though it's kind of a dog as a starting hand.

By the way, QJT9ds is considered a good and very playable (albeit not "great") hand in Omaha-high-only.

Buzz

QJT9ds tends to see polarized flops. In other words it flops very well or very poorly in o8, so in games where I can play for big pots - because of the stacks, the format, or the opponents - I don't mind seeing a flop with it if the situation is right. A good situation is one that has good relative position and a cheap price.

jmo

Thanks! I am asking the question for FLO8.

Is it a good hand for a steal from button?

If only a limper in front and you are at late position like CO, would you play it by limping?

FLO8...

Author Jeff Hwang on page 200 of his book calls hand As3c3dKh "Trash" since it has only one thing going "A3"

What about AKo for high?

To me it's a two-way hand. Its rank for 10 handed isn't that bad either...Like 17.

No, I don't like it in any of these situations. In fixed-limit, I would want to play it against multiple limpers. As for button steals, in situations where it might become heads up I want a hand with at least *something* to show down for low -- I would prefer T987ds to QJT9ds in these situations.

It depends on whom you're stealing from. It's a good hand for a steal if the steal is likely to work. it's a poor hand for a steal if the steal is unlikely to work. The trick is to keep track of which of your opponents defend and which of your opponents don't.

Again, it depends. But if you're just beginning, I'd advise you to fold it.

Buzz .

The following is based on ProPokerTools rankings:

Rankings for As3c3dKh

#hands	Description	1/100 would be best
10H	10-handed iterative (default)	17.0/100
6H	6-handed iterative	19.0/100
3H	3-handed iterative	23.0/100
VR	vs. random hand	27.0/100

Draw your own conclusion.

If you want to dispute Jeff Hwang, I suggest you write to him directly. Or there's a special sticky thread we have for discussion of books. I don't have my copy of his book handy, so I don't know the context of his remark... tournament or cash game, # of players, no-limit or pot-limit or fixed-limit, etc.

Looks like you've looked directly at the same ProPokerTools rankings I revised above.

Some hands that are trash to tight players are gold to loose players.

Whether I play tightly or loosely depends on various factors, but I'm an experienced player. I advocate generally tight play for someone just starting the game... and it sounds like Jeff does too.

Buzz

All good advice, in my humble opinion.

Buzz

FLO8. Three handed.

Hero at BB with J239. Button limps and SB completes.

Flop: A7Q

SB leads...

Call or fold? This is a small pot and Hero is drawing nut low for half a pot? (In this situation should Hero consider Button's play style?)

Do not fold. Either raise (my first choice) or call (my second choice). If you raise here, you will often induce Button to fold, and, if so, you may buy a free card on the next betting round (third) if you like.

If you just call, that's more likely than if you raise.

Yes, I suppose so... but not much. I guess you should always consider Button's play style, but you don't want to be intimidated by it. You want to be the one who does the intimidating.

If you raise (as I would), consider it a semi-bluff raise. You hope, in the back of your mind, to convert this to a scooper. That may not be possible here, but scooping should be your goal with your hand after this flop. (Probably all your opponents will have to be intimidated by your aggressive post-flop style and fold).

You can post hands like this with questions like this in their own threads if you like. You mostly only get my opinion by posting in this Newb's thread. You probably get more other, possibly opposing, opinions if you start a separate thread.

Buzz

Thanks Buzz!

I will from now on post such questions in separate posts as I feel they are just beginner's ones which may not be interesting...

Your advice of raise SB's flop bet is eye-opening for me. What still confuses me a little bit is that I always thought I am draw on flop and Button's call adds to Hero's odds...

Another related question...Let's say you have a hand similar but not nut low draw, like J2X9, if X = 4, or 5, do you fold to SB's bet on flop?


Do you mean by raise flop and bet both turn/river without making nut low to scoop/bluff?

You're welcome.

That's all true. But playing it like a draw in a three handed game when you have a chance to take command of the hand is not, in my humble opinion, the best way to play this hand.

You hold J249,
the flop is A7Q,
and SB bets?
If so, I'd be inclined to usually fold.

I don't understand.

When you bet without having anything, that's a bluff.

When you win the whole pot rather than a fraction of it, that's a scoop.

You should always have an eye towards scooping. Most of my own scoops come from converting one-way fractional pot winners to whole pot winners by judicious, aggressive betting. The idea is you bet or raise and by so doing, you get your opponents to fold... but you have to have good card and people sense to pull it off. The idea is to not do it when it won't work. The idea is to do it when it will work.

Omaha-8 is quite different (in my opinion and experience) from Texas hold 'em, where some players tend to bet polarized hands (nuts or air). In Omaha-8, when some players bet, it is because they have something, not necessarily the nuts, possibly a draw of some sort, and usually not air.

Ideally you learn and remember how your opponents play faster and better than they learn and remember how you play.

Buzz

For US guys, you playing on WPN or Ignition? Looking to mix in some PLO with holdem this year, just wondering about any advice on sites...

Ignition. There is a very lengthy thread about Ignition in the Internet Poker forum.

Both are worth a try, they each have their own different pros and cons so you'll have to see which one you like more. Tbh just run both at once if you can and you'll have double the options to pick from.

hey guys!
I'm new to the forum and have a question about the following spot I encountered playing 6 max $0.10/0.25 omaha 8 on Betonline. If I'm posting in the wrong thread or not explaining the hand properly, please do let me know. Thanks!

I got dealt A A 7 T on the button and elected to raise pot behind 2 limpers. Big blind and one limper call and we go to the flop 3 handed with $4.16 in the pot. All players are about 100bb deep

Flop comes A J 3

Both players check to me. I bet pot. Big blind calls and other player folds. We go to the turn heads up with $12.02 in the pot.

Turns comes Q

vilain checks to me again. I bet pot and get check raised all in for an additional $6.22. I call and villain shows down K T 5 4 and scoops the pot.

Any thoughts on this hand? Should I be pot controlling more or did I just encounter some typical variance?

I would make a new thread as you will get more answers that way than if it is buried in this thread. As for the hand, potting it twice seems excessive. Once you have no chance for low on turn (and there is now a straight + fd), just check and evaluate river.

thanks graybeard... I will follow your suggestion

It's less important to talk about this one specific hand than to walk thru and improve your poker thinking. How did you make each decision? Why do you now suspect this decision wasn't right?

That said the reply is not the right way to think about poker decisions. Listing a bunch of worse hands that can call you--flush draws, low draws--is not an argument to check back!. That's precisely backwards.

Pot control may be the most abused concept in big bet poker. Why do we control the pot? When our hand is not good enough to get value on every street, but we expect to get value next street (by vbet or inducing a bluff) if we check this street.

If we bet the turn, can anything worse call us?

Also consider this: we don't have two pot size (or almost pot size bets) left in our stack. Suppose we only had one pot size bet left before the turn action. Now suppose that instead, we have 4x pot (ie, PSB on turn and river). How are those two situations different?

FWIW I'd bet the turn 100% of the time with this hand, for protection.

Hi guys,

I started to play this awesome game 1/2-3/6 at PS. Prop i have tons of mistakes, and i would like to find them
First of all: I loose so much in the blinds. Why is that? What are the common mistakes for "beginners" from the blinds, who started learning this game? Am I defending too tight?

You will always lose money in the blinds. But it does look like you aren't defending nearly enough. Still it's a pretty small sample size to take anything from the win rates.

Anyone interested in swapping their o8 strats for my s8 or lhe strats?

Of course I have a lot to learn still, but I'm very positive I beat almost every line up in s8 and most live line ups in LHE with what I currently know.

pm me if interested.

Topics I'd like to learn/understand better in o8:
how hands rank HUHU/6 handed/FR,
preflop opens (especially from late position),
open-limping vs. raising vs. folding from EP,
cold-calling vs. 3betting vs. folding against an EP/LP open and a tight/loose BB,
BB defense,
check back flop ranges in HU pots,
how to play backdoor low draws,
how to play over pairs on wet flops with 2 babies,
specific hands: A675 ds, AA69, A234, A45K, KQJT, 9TTJ,
multiway strategies (push/pull),
playing draws multiway,
how often to bluff,
merits to playing balanced,
what to bluffcatch with,
heuristics/shortcuts to simplify the game