Opp: 14/6, 621 hands
aggr: 2.1(46%), 1.3(40%), 1.0(34%)

Is it cooler against this tight opponent or I made mistake somewhere in the hand?

$0.50/$1 Pot Limit Omaha Hi/Lo
6 Players
Hand Conversion Powered by weaktight.com

Stacks:
Hero (UTG) ($84.20)
UTG+1 ($54)
CO ($50.90)
BTN ($89.60)
SB ($91.25)
BB ($52.55)

Pre-Flop: ($1.50, 6 players) Hero is UTG 3 A A 8
Hero raises to $3.50, 2 folds, BTN calls $3.50, 2 folds

Flop: A 9 4 ($8.50, 2 players)
Hero bets $8.10, BTN calls $8.10

Turn: 5 ($24.70, 2 players)
Hero bets $23.50, BTN calls $23.50

River: K ($71.70, 2 players)
Hero goes all-in $49.10, BTN calls $49.10

Final Pot: $169.90
BTN shows HI: a straight, Ace to Five; LO: 5,4,3,2,A
8 A 3 2
Hero shows HI: three of a kind, Aces; LO: 8,5,4,3,A
3 A A 8

BTN wins $166.90 (net +$82.70)

Hero lost $84.20

I don't think there's a lesson for beginners here. But I'll leave your post here (rather than moving it to where I think it belongs) so that maybe nobody else will make such a post in this thread. (No offense is intended).

You played a hand you should have played and you lost to a better hand/board fit.

Meh. (shrug). It goes with the territory.

This hand history probably belongs in the monthly "catch all" thread. If posted there, anyone who wanted to comment (including me) could.

You didn't play the hand the way I would usually have played it, but styles differ. One way might be better against one group of opponents while another way might be better against a different group of opponents. My opinion is the style you seem to be using here is a tad too aggressive for Omaha-8 and better suited to Texas hold 'em or even Omaha-high than Omaha-8. However, the newb's thread is not the place for a discussion of playing styles, and lots of excellent Omaha-8 players, better poker players than I am, disagree with me on this point.

You're out of position, and then when you get to the turn (which is not favorable to your starting hand), in a very tough spot. If you check, Villain will probably bet, and then it's awkward. On the other hand, betting yourself is very dangerous. It's simply a tough spot.

Meh.

Buzz

So I've heard that a reasonably achievable winrate in LO8 in higher compared LHE (2-3BB/100 while LHE is like 1-2BB/100) and also that the variance is lower.

What are your guys' opinions on this? I'm asking because I'm in a B/E stretch in LHE and kinda want to break into other games to help for fun and diversification.

Your win rate is dependent on two factors:
• 1. your skill level compared to the skill levels of your opponents, and
• 2. luck.

You can probably make more money in a game where there are more deals per hour. There probably are more deals per hour for Texas hold 'em than any other poker game and you don't have to cope with splits. And you can probably win more in pot-limit or no-limit games than fixed-limit games. Thus no-limit Texas hold 'em is potentially the most profitable poker game. But you also can lose more money in such a game.

Your long term success (or lack of it) playing poker is more dependent on the skill levels of the particular groups of opponents you are facing than any one variation of poker being easier to beat than another.

The different variations of poker do involve different elements of knowledge and skill. Some games are more complex than others and thus may be more difficult to learn. Omaha-8 is not the most complex poker game, but it's more complex than a high only or a low only game.

I advise you to learn all the variations of poker and then play the games you enjoy.

Buzz

ah very well put buzz. thanks for the breakdown. and that's actually what I'm planning on doing is learning about a bunch of other games and seeing what I enjoy the most, LHE is fun but can get old quick so if I mix that in with some other stuff I think poker in general would be more enjoyable. LO8 so far seems pretty cool, looking to get into some split pot games in the future.

one last question. Are there any link collections or digests of hands where a n00b like myself can get going? I'm considering starting to look through the wells but I've found that well's usually contain more personal questions than poker. Ray Zee and SS2 are on the way as well.

No. The problem with hand histories posted on this forum is there are a mixture of responses and opinions, some from experts but some from individuals who know as little or less than you know but who may think they know the game well. It's hard to tell the expert opinions from these non-expert opinions. And even the "experts" sometimes disagree or post advice that would be good on one level but doesn't work well on another.

Best, I think to start with a good book, play some to get experience, and maybe get good coaching.

Buzz

Can you name some members that you think tend to give solid advice? Just off the top of your head.

Probably, but I won't. (It would necessarily be a biased point of view). This is a discussion forum and different points of view are presented and debated. It's up to the reader to decide what is and isn't correct.

Buzz

Cooler? Would you play it diff.?

I'm having trouble against these 90/30 droolers (this was over 20 hands only for this villain).

iPoker - $0.04 PL Hi/Lo - Omaha - 10 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 3

UTG: $2.51
UTG+1: $4.97
MP: $10.46
MP+1: $3.79
MP+2: $1.34
LP: $8.97
CO: $3.48
BTN: $4.76
SB: $5.49
Hero (BB): $5.00

SB posts SB $0.02, Hero posts BB $0.04

Pre Flop: (pot: $0.06) Hero has A A 2 2

UTG calls $0.04, UTG+1 calls $0.04, MP calls $0.04, fold, fold, LP calls $0.04, fold, BTN calls $0.04, fold, Hero checks

Flop: ($0.26, 6 players) A 9 5
Hero bets $0.26, UTG calls $0.26, fold, fold, fold, BTN calls $0.26

Turn: ($1.04, 3 players) J
Hero bets $1.04, UTG calls $1.04, BTN raises to $4.46, Hero raises to $4.70, UTG calls $1.17

River: ($12.17, 3 players) T



What should I be thinking about how to play against these kind of villains, other than try and get it in good?? Nit it up and peddle the nuts?

I'm just so confused atm, as these types of villains are predominant at the micros.

I'd probably raise, even from the BB, with this good two way hand. I don't think its a huge leak to just see a flop, but the hand will often be good enough to play for stacks on many flops, so I like to build the pot a little pre.

This is a cooler, so don't get too upset about it. When I first started playing I also became frustrated with the lack of fold equity, but honestly its a good problem to have.

You've posted in the newb's thread. The newb thread is not really intended for hand history questions such as you have asked.

Without looking at the results posted in the spoiler, clearly the river card is not to Hero's liking. Suddenly three straights are possible for Villain. If Villain happens to have KQ**, Q8**, or 87**, Hero is sunk.

I presume, since you're posting this hand, Villain did indeed have one of those hands.

I would have played the hand differently, but it doesn't matter how I would have played it, because there's no defense when you're all-in and the river card is such that Villain ends up with the winning hand.

Note that the river card could have been a five and if Villain happened to be holding 55**, your aces full would lose to Villain's quads.

I don't know what a 90/30 drooler is.

Casinos make a lot of money off their slot machines. They do that despite occasionally having to pay off a big jack pot. They make a lot of money because they have favorable odds. Favorable odds doesn't mean the casino with favorable odds will be destined to win every single wager. (If that were the case, nobody would play the slots).

Poker or Omaha-8 poker is no different in terms of winning and losing when you have favorable odds. You won't win every single time you have the odds on your side. But over the long haul, you can reasonably expect to win more than you'll lose.

I'm not going to read the results in your spoiler. No offense intended. If you lost, please accept my condolences. If you won, congratulations.

If you think your hand is worthy of discussion, please repost it in a separate thread. If you do that, you'll probably get different opinions about how to best play your cards.

Without looking at the spoiler, my guess is it's a "bad beat" type hand history post, where you had favorable odds on the turn and then got a cooler on the river. Sometimes posters post such hands in the monthly "catch all" thread. That is where they belong.

Buzz

OK, I'll try and look at it differently from now on.

OK, didn't think it warranted a thread - I thought it might be just a cooler but wanted some confirmation.

I forgot about the LC thread so will remember next time for such hands.

Indeed. ATM I'm just really struggling to understand villains thought processes at the micros (why this villain stuck with his hand) and how best to adjust my game, which brings me on to..........

.........someone with 90% vpip (30% pfr). I see these types of players all the time. I'm sure that's a good thing though, even if I am struggling against them.

I think the questions I have might warrant a thread so when I've put some more thought in to it I'll do that.

None taken. In fact, this is a nice reminder to me that I can be results oriented.

Thanks. Actually I thought that might be it, but wasn't certain.

Fine.

A good way to get your questions answered is one at a time. If you post a hand history thread with just one question and just one hand history, the answers will tend to focus on your question.

My own opinion is there's not just one way to play a hand. How best to play a particular hand is highly dependent on the particular opponents who are seated at your table, how they feel about each other, how they feel about you, and perhaps how sharp they are on this particular occasion. I might play a hand one way on one occasion and another way on another occasion. It would depend on what I thought my opponent(s) might be trying and what I thought would work well at that particular moment.

To give a trite example, Hero might have a royal flush on the river, the stone cold nuts, and merely call a bet from someone in early position, if there were two players yet to act who would be expected to call if Hero called, but fold if Hero raised.

At any rate, different successful individuals who post here have different opinions and different ideas about how best to play. Sometimes these ideas are innovative, perhaps involving out of the box thinking. An action that may seem purely stupid to some posters may seem very logical and to another poster.

We welcome opposing points of view because by discussing poster's ideas, we hope to arrive at the truth, or at least gain insight into how some of our various opponents may be thinking.

But we're not looking to have in depth discussions in the newb's thread (this thread). The object of this thread is to simply answer very basic and non controversial questions about how to play Omaha-8.

Just (1) my perspective on posts in the newb's thread and (2) giving a bit of advice on how to best get answers to your questions.

Buzz

I marked 4 hands from my session today for review. 2 because I thought I played well, and 2 because I thought I made bad calls. But after reviewing I just don't know what to think.

Would 4 hands in a thread be overkill?

Yes. Start 2 separate threads with one hand in each. Once those threads have died down, start 2 more.

Just my opinion though.

[edit] Mine too.

Thanks, ichbin.

Buzz [/edit]

Hi, what is the most popular kind of Omaha8? Limit, pot limit, or no limit?

I am a NLHE player (shocking, I know), but I am starting to burn out mentally. I like cashing out too much to take a break so I want to learn a new game. I played some PLO and had a blast, but I have a feeling Omaha8 is the future of Omaha since fish have two "pots" to chase.

I just want to make sure I can find tables off-peak for whatever game I decide to learn.

The answer somewhat depends on you. Such as: What stakes do you play? Do you play live or online? If online, what site do you play on?

In general if I had to guess based on the posts on this board, Big Bet (NL/PL) O8 is a bit more popular than Limit. The downside of Big bet O8 is it doesn't play as high if you are a high stakes player. I don't think games larger than 5/10 run online ever and usually nothing with more than a couple players runs past 2/4 or 3/6. With limit you will find games at the 75/150 level at PokerStars. If you want to play live I believe it will be much easier to find limit games, though I believe Buzz said there is a NL game that runs in his neck of the woods. PL games are hard to come by live, but are probably the most popular online. PokerStars seems to have more Big bet O8 action than Full Tilt, but Full Tilt has more 100BB tables running than PokerStars usually.

This is all just my opinion. Hope it helps.

The only kind, to the best of my knowledge, currently being played in Los Angeles County casinos is fixed limit. (Until last night I thought there was a consistent no-limit game in one casino, but although there were a dozen of us on the waiting list, management declined to start a no-limit table).

There never has been any pot limit Omaha-8 on a sustained basis in a brick and mortar casino anywhere, to the best of my knowledge. The more highly skilled players punish the poor players to quickly to keep a game going.

On-line, I believe there are all the types of games. But I'm not sure about full table on a regular basis. Omaha-8 is a game that lends itself to collusion more than various other games. Wise on-line players are wary of this and prefer heads-up play where collusion is impossible.

If you're playing to make a living, stick to Texas hold 'em or try Omaha-high.

If you're playing more for recreation than to amass as much money as possible, Omaha-8 is the more interesting game in my humble opinon.

Hard to say.

Sorry. No guarantees.

Buzz

Thanks for the help. To answer some questions, my normal stakes are between 50NL-100NL for cash and heads up. $3-$24 MTT. All of my experience is with no limit so I was hoping that limit wasn't popular. Oh well.

I play on Full Tilt and Stars, though a casino just opened 20 minutes from my house last month. So I may end up playing live if they offer it. And finally, I play poker as a 2nd job. While my goal is to make money , I'm not dependent on poker income to pay the bills.

May I ask how it lends itself to collusion more? I'm new to playing O8.

Also, how many BB/100 is it reasonable to earn playing PLO8 at say, 0.05/0.10, and then at a higher stake - say 1/2. I've searched the term 'BB/100' in this subforum and got no relevant results.

Thanks very much for your help!

I think it's the high/low aspect of the game that particularly lends itself to collusion between partners - and the fact that the nuts is common when going for the low.

If you knew your partner had the nut low (and vice versa), you and your partner would never quarter each other. If one of you thought he had a winning high and you both knew the other partner had the nut low, you could jack it up, with some poor devil caught in the middle.

I'm not saying collusion doesn't exist in other poker games. But I don't think you could as well get away with jacking up the pot size in a straight high game. I think you'd arouse suspicion more quickly.

I have no idea. I've never played the game with nickle and dime blinds. (I have played pot-limit Omaha-8 in private homes with $1/$2 blinds but it's always been just as one of the games in a dealer's choice session).

I don't think PLO8 is sustainable in a brick and mortar casino. (The better players beat up the poorer players too quickly).

There have been many threads where how much money you can make is a question. In theory you can make a bundle. In actuality, because of the rake, you're more likely to lose than to win.

Anyone who leads you to believe it's easy to win money playing Omaha-8 poker may be simply hustling you.

Don't get me wrong. I love the game. But in my humble opinion you'll find easier pickings playing Texas hold 'em than Omaha-8.

For one thing, Omaha-8 is slower than Texas hold 'em. For another, it's harder to find opponents you can beat.

That written, by all means, come and play the game. Omaha-8 is a great poker game - my personal favorite.

Buzz

I logged a little over 20k hands when I played PL10 with a bb(big blinds)/100 of almost 21bb/100, but an EVbb/100 of only about 13bb/100. 1BB is 2bb I believe so you can divide my numbers in half if you want that number.

My sample size is kind of smallish, but once I felt I was good enough to play PL25, I just moved up. Once I hit PL25 my win rate dropped a good bit, but this is also the time I started to multi-table 12-16 tables, so no real telling if the numbers would be comparable. I only play as high as PL50, so I can't give you any insight on win rates at higher levels.

Hope that helps, though keep in mind that this is just my results and yours may be higher or lower.

i wouldn't focus too much on winrates in the micros...maybe glance at them once in a while... use the micros to round up your game before preparing for the long haul (higher stakes)

Hi

I'm going to learn LO8 and wondered what stakes you would recommend based on my previous poker experience.

I'm essentially breakeven at NLHE from NL10-NL50 over 30,000 or so hands, a 4bb/100 winner at SH PLO $0.02/$0.05 and $0.05/$0.10 over around 12,000 hands and before the days of tracking software I took a $300 roll up to $1,500 and then a $500 roll to $2,200 playing FLHE using a 300bb bankroll.

My current roll is around $350 so I wondered what stakes would be best for LO8. I was thinking some $0.50/$1 and $0.25/$0.50. I'm hoping to build a roll that will allow me to play some PLO8 although all the games seem to be 25-50bb at the moment.

Cheers

Matt