Yes.
Villain has 32.4% of scooping. Hitting at 1:2 doesn't count as rare or ridiculous, imo.

WOW yeah I would agree thats pretty rare. He dodged alot of bullets.

The way I think of "rare/ridiculous," yes, you're wrong.

ProPokerTools Omaha Hi/Lo Simulation

3,358,720 trials (Exhaustive)

board: 26J

Hand	Pot equity	Scoops	Wins Hi	Ties Hi	Wins Lo	Ties Lo
A345	57.98%	1,570,483	1,570,483	0	2,228,224	0
AsAhAd9c	42.02%	1,034,685	1,788,237	0	0	0

AsAhAd9c scoops 1,034,685/3,358,720 or roughly almost one time in three. I don't think one time in three is "rare/ridiculous."

Buzz

Interestingly, I think every single board with two running high cards scoops for the AAA9*. This includes pairing, double pairing, or tripling the cards on board, including the low ones, as long as no unique low card comes out.

It's a good example of why being all-in with AA is so safe. Here with the absolute worst aces imaginable, versus our pretty good starting hand, and with us getting one of the best 20% of flops imaginable, we're still only a 58% favorite. Unless your opponent is marked with the other two aces, it's never horrible to be all-in with aces. (I'd still fold AAA9r).




*Except some backdoor flush we weren't told about.

???
I found that an interesting statement. Did you mean on the flop?

AAHH is practically never ahead of anything that gets the money in on that flop (8787 is a 47-53 dog vs AAA9 here... though it might find a fold). Obv depending on flop SPR. Often hovering around 40% or below, sometimes totally crushed.

No, pre. This is the 2nd worst AA hand and should be folded without a thought pre. Nevertheless, after our preflop mistake to shove, and after our opponent gets good flop, we're still (from the perspective of the aaa9) 40%.

Hence always trying to get all in with any AA, although far from optimal, is pretty safe. Virtually all the range "any AA" is better than this one, and most of the time our opponent will flop worse than here, often much worse.

Ok, makes more sense... as I understood the original bad beat story, all in happened on the flop.

Where are you lot getting 1/3 scoop from. How could AAA9 possibly have 42%eq but only scoop 1/3?

From the numbers in the following simulation, AsAhAd9c scoops 1,034,685/3,358,720 or roughly almost one time in three.

If you want to be fussier, AsAhAd9c scoops about three times in ten.

ProPokerTools Omaha Hi/Lo Simulation

3,358,720 trials (Exhaustive)

board: 26J

Hand	Pot equity	Scoops	Wins Hi	Ties Hi	Wins Lo	Ties Lo
A345	57.98%	1,570,483	1,570,483	0	2,228,224	0
AsAhAd9c	42.02%	1,034,685	1,788,237	0	0	0

Buzz

when we are first to open, especially in EP, and we have a A34-A35 hand or an A2xx hand. no ace is suited. is it better to limp or raise? if we are in a loose game where 4 maybe 5 players are seeing the flop? I don't think raising unsuited A2 hands or unsuited A34 hands are profitable though, id rather see a flop and If I see another bet go in in front of me I might have to fold

and how do we do with A45 unsuited? in EP is that just a fold in a loose game?

I ask myself the same question every time I am first to open (or whenever someone else has already opened regardless of my position). In other words, I have no set course of action with a particular hand; sometimes I'll do one thing while other times I'll act in a different fashion. Which seems better to me at the time depends on my interaction with my opponents and the specific situation.

Why not?

What happens when you raise? What is the effect on your opponents when you raise? How do you expect each of your opponents to react when you raise? (I don't want the answers to these questions... you need to answer these questions for yourself... and then act accordingly.

Similarly, what happens when you limp? What is the effect on your opponents when you limp? What do you expect each of your opponents to do and what do you expect them each to think, based on your past observations, when you do one thing or another? Think about the answers to these type questions when you are confronted with each situation. I do.

I'm going to assume you're talking about a fixed-limit game, rather than a pot-limit or no-limit game. In a fixed-limit game, I generally like to see the flop with A2**, A34*, and A35* type hands. I much prefer them to have a suited ace, but I'll probably play them with or without a suited ace, and from any position. I tend not to be intimidated by a first round raise from an opponent. Instead, I consider what that first round raise might mean, depending on who the raiser is.

I'm going to play that hand too, sometimes limping and sometimes raising, from any position in a fixed-limit game... but again, I'm not a beginner.

In post #51 in this newb's thread I presented a bare bones beginner's list of starting hands. If you're a beginner, I recommend you stick to that simple list while you sit at the table, watching, and learning. You won't make a lot of money, but you won't get hurt either, and, assuming you're not stupid, if you observe you'll learn for yourself what other hands are also playable... and how to play them.

By forcing yourself to stick to this simple list, you'll also learn how to play a disciplined, tight game. You can (and probably should) loosen up later, but in my humble opinion, you really should first learn to play a disciplined, tight game before you loosen up.

Buzz

Hey guys, so I occasionally dabble in some Omaha Tournaments and SNGs (and rarely super micro cash games) - generally playing O8 or better cos it's just wicked fun. Now whilst I do ok in them, I'm generally just playing like a mega nit and probably just clicking buttons - which works in the low blind levels. But the problem is once I start getting short stacked I just have no idea what hands are shovable and what hands are meh bad - and I can't just wait it out for AA23 double suited for however many orbits. I know I don't value the regular good Omaha Hi hands enough to shove in O8 (Like a QJT9r or something for example) which is a mistake the shorter I get (I assume) but other than that I'm generally lost on hands to shove.

Essentially I'm just looking for some resources which can help me figure out some shoveable hands at a short stacked stage in a tourney/SNG for O8

honestly, what i kind of do is just relate it to holdem. think about what ur shoving ranges in holdem would look like from what spots at what stack depths. say 10bb on button we are shipping something like top 30%, well; why wouldnt we ship about 30% in plo8 in that same spot? I would think it would translate to PLO8 as well, has to be somewhat close. tourney principles and icm still apply, bubble factor, stack depth, opponents calling ranges etc. ranking hands may be a bit difficult without a lot of practice and studying.

in the example u gave with j q 9 10, i dont think its very powerful at all in plo8. i mean bvb with like 10bb or less its pry a profitable shove or pot bet/get it in pre. but like 5bb or even 4bb i will fold that under the gun all day, we have pretty much lost our fold equity and its not that great of a hand in plo8. Meh, thats pry where i would get close to shoving it though, at that stack depth but no more (5bb ceiling)

im no pro plo8er

is 30 BUY-INs bankroll good enough for LimitO8 even for a starter? especially if you are planning on playing really tight for the first 3-5k hands?

also I assume we are buy-ing in for 25BB so at a .25/.50 table its around 12-13$

You want to wait until you have a clearly superior hand to shove, and hope an opponent is fool enough to chase with an inferior hand. Is that right? (That's how I read your request).

A general problem with Omaha-8 is the number of distinctly different starting hands, 16432. In addition, the ordering depends a bit on how many opponents you're facing. In addition, it's not clear exactly how superior you want your shove hands to be (top 1%?, top 2%?, etc.).

I suggest you google "ProPokerTools hand ordering, Omaha-8" for a start.

Buzz

I like to make sure people's questions in this thread get answered.

Alas, no one has responded to your questions and I don't know quite how to answer.

[deleted my guess... please read AKQJ10's post below]

Buzz

No. A bankroll assumes you know your winrate (or can estimate it) and that it's positive. Neither of these assumptions is probably true.

Instead, you should decide how much you can afford to lose learning the game. This is your training budget (NOT bankroll). At some point you'll learn enough about the game to identify mistakes your opponents make that you don't make. Then you can think about bankroll.

...

Meanwhile, if your budget can afford it, I'd actually suggest hiring a coach and, when he says you're ready, moving up. Even a couple of hours of coaching will same you time floundering around at micros unsure if you're a winning player. If your budget can't afford that, I'd at least suggest subscribing to a video training site.

IMO unless you enjoy grinding your way up, the cost of time spent grinding at micros after you've become a winning player is high.

Thank you.

Buzz

hey guys, when we are at a rather loose table where 4-5 peopel are seeing the flop and we see a 2-bet or 3-bet and its to us and we hold

A25x or A35x no ace is suited. Is it correct to fold? what about A34?

Sounds like maybe you're playing your own cards more than you're playing your opponents.

You're posting in the newb's thread, and thus I assume you probably haven't played a lot of Omaha-8... and you're looking at low-type starting hands, which is a typical newb's point of focus. But I think in any poker game, even if you're a newb, and even when the game is Omaha-8, you should attach primary importance to playing your opponents and secondary importance to playing your cards.

When you play opponents who like to gamble, you're more or less forced to gamble too. Thus when you have a hand you think is playable, "play poker." In other words, don't fold a starting hand you think is playable just because you're pressured.

However, if you're uncomfortable about getting pressured too much, find another set of opponents where you feel more comfortable.

That's just my opinion. Someone else who knows the game well may have a different opinion... something I'm not considering. If so, please feel free to disagree with me.

Buzz

I mean, I am sure oppoenents are playing 2-3xx and some A5/6xx hands and whatnot(mediocre hands). but if the table has been pretty loose and wanting to see flops, im just not sure how to handle 3-bets with hands like the ones I posted above without any suited As

We need to know how many opponents are seated at the table (and thus dealt cards). And then we need to know how many of these opponents who are dealt cards are seeing the flop.

In other words, are four or five out of nine seeing the flop, or are four or five out of six seeing the flop?

And then are the four or five who are seeing the flop the same four or five each time, or do all your opponents see the flop with about the same frequency?

And what stakes are you playing?

You'll probably do better by posting a few hand histories, getting feed-back, and making your own generalizations than asking us to make generalizations for you.

In general, when there's a lot of pre-flop multiple betting, you're either playing at a table with at least some (if not all) opponents who want to gamble - or you're playing at a table with opponents who like to intimidate others and/or who think they gain an edge by raising pre-flop. (It's a tactic that, IMO, works better at a Texas hold 'em table or an Omaha-high table than it works at an Omaha-8 table).

When you play at a table with opponents who gamble, then you may be forced to gamble too. If that doesn't suit you, then find another table with different opponents.

I don't think you can afford to allow yourself to be intimidated.
• 1. If your opponents think you'll fold if raised, then they'll raise. If they find they can intimidate you, then they're likely to try to intimidate you.
• 2. IMO Hero doesn't play properly when he feels intimidated. You want to be the one doing the intimidation, rather than the one being intimidated.
• 3. Don't ever play "scared." Don't buy in for more than you can easily afford to lose. Don't bring more money to a game than you can easily afford to lose.

In general, in a game where four or five of my opponents see the flop for multiple bets pre-flop, depending somewhat on which four or five opponents are seeing the flop, all the hands you've posted are good enough for me to see the flop, and more or less regardless of the number of bets... but then I'm not a beginner.

What's my advice to a beginner in the situation you have described?...
1. You can't allow yourself to be intimidated. If you think your opponents are raising to intimidate you, and it their tactic is working, then you should quit the table.
2. But if the multiple bets are not being made to intimidate you, then when you're confused, play more tightly and concentrate on watching and learning. In other words, fold these hands and watch and learn.
3. The game should be fun. If its not, either find a table that is fun or do something else.

Good luck.

Buzz

i ve been running pretty bad imo, I hve been dealt a24, a25, a2x hands multiple times, and i ve been seeing 2 or 3 high flops, its tilting

It's discouraging to have a run of bad luck but runs of bad luck happen to us all. However, are you sure you're having a run of bad luck, or could it be that you've gotten in over your head. That is, could it be that you're playing too many opponents who have more poker skill or Omaha-8 knowledge than you. If so, you should expect to lose. If that bothers you, then stop playing against those opponents and find a table with less skillful opponents.

I guess you're telling us you have been dealt your share of decent starting hands, but still are losing.

It's not enough to be dealt a decent starting hand... you also need the flop, turn, and river to work your hand.

You also need to read your opponents well enough to know when you can convert your half way pots to scoopers when possible,

You also need to read your opponents well enough to know "when to hold 'em and when to fold 'em," when to push your advantage and when to fold.

There's quite a bit of skill involved. And in the short term, some luck.

I don't know what you mean. Do you mean when you're dealt nice low hands the flop has not fit them very well? What I do when that happens is I fold. But I have the self discipline to not play at tables where I wonder how to handle three-bets before the flop.

Yes, I imagine it would be.

It may seem like you're having bad luck... and it's possible that's the case. But I think it's more likely your opponents are more skillful that you are. Another possibility is your opponents may have better concentration, patience, and self discipline than you do.

I know that's not what you want to hear.

If you're playing in a live game, you need to learn how each individual opponent plays. Focus on one opponent per session. I can't learn how a particular opponent plays unless I devote an entire three hour playing session to carefully watching that one opponent. Since poker is a deceptive game and your opponents will generally be doing their best to deceive you, learning how even one of them plays is a difficult assignment.

But there's no way around knowing how each one of your opponents plays if you want to be a successful brick and mortar casino poker player. (That's my opinion... it's neither easy nor for those who are lazy).

If you really want to learn the game, consider hiring a coach who will pay attention to your individual needs. (But be very careful of getting scammed if you do decide to hire a coach).

If you're just interested in having some fun, don't take more money to the game than you don't mind losing and find a table with opponents who are fun.

Good luck.

Buzz

where can i play 1/2 plo8?