A player with a different playing style might have played this hand a bit differently, but I don't see anything you did that was wrong here. And indeed, in the end you scooped!

On the flop (2nd betting round), Villain makes what seems like a questionable check/raise. I wonder whether that's
• just a change of pace,
• pure stupidity and/or recklessness, or
• an attempt to intimidate and possibly realistically knock you out of the pot after you've bet, based on your past performance. (In other words, are you given to folding to a check/raise or do you bet and then fold if raised?)

I'm more wondering why Villain would check/raise on the second betting round than why you would play the hand as you did. His action might have nothing to do with you, but on the other hand it might be because of some past action of yours.

I think it depends on your particular opponents and also on your own expertise. And although position doesn't matter nearly as much in fixed-limit as in pot-limit or no-limit, what to play also has some dependence on position.

You can look up the relative pre-flop rating of a starting hand. Here's a reference for you:
http://www.propokertools.com/simulations?g=o8.

(K8)(K5) is a hand that is expected to fare better than about four fifths of starting hands and fare worse than about one fifth of starting hands. That's roughly the meaning of the 19 rank.

Against one opponent with unknown cards, as simulated,
• it scoops 42.7%,
• gets scooped 29.4%, and
• splits 27.9%.
Here's the reference:

ProPokerTools Omaha Hi/Lo Simulation

600,000 trials (Randomized)

Hand	Pot equity	Scoops	Wins Hi	Ties Hi	Wins Lo	Ties Lo
KsKc8s5c	57.41%	256,445	389,279	3,637	95,326	8,388
****	42.59%	167,779	207,084	3,637	201,209	8,388

It depends.

It depends, but usually.

There is no simple formula guaranteed to make you a winner. Some people have or develop the knack while others don't.

A beginner's list of starting hands:

Probably only about fifteen or sixteen per cent of Omaha-8 starting hands are profitable against competent opponents, if you let the cards more or less play themselves.

If you don’t know which starting hands belong to this elite 15% of starting hands group, you’re not alone. Start by choosing any hands belonging to the following three groups:

• all hands with an ace and a deuce (but not trips),
• all hands with an ace and a trey where the ace is suited to one or more cards in the hand (but not trips),
• all hands with a pair of aces (but not trips) where at least one of the aces is suited to one or two cards in the hand.

These three groups of hands make up about 13.7% of the hands dealt, approximately one out of seven hands dealt, including some hands that are borderline and probably not profitable, but also including most of the safely profitable hands.

That's a beginner's list of playable starting hands. In a real money game, you probably won't get in too much trouble playing those hands, you'll practice discipline and learn how to play tightly, and if you keep your eyes open and stay focused on the game, you'll survive while learning and enjoying the game.


There's another more detailed beginner's list referenced in the FAQ that you might try if you're interested (Hutchison).

Buzz

Hi guys. I tried the search and couldn't find exactly what I was looking for, a graph.Could someone post or link me to a solid HU sng graph if possible? Thanks.

Sharkscope 'tatta'

yeah thanks, thats sick. im actually more curious about the swings. i dont have a sub to SS so its like 2 inches big and looks like a ramp.

I guess what im also wondering is what a solid ROI would be and how big of a sample size you need to get a good idea of where youre at.

The internal search engine for vB, the system 2+2 forums are currently using, does not work well for finding such entries.

Try googling it.

In other words, try typing "SNG heads-up Omaha-8 graph" or "sharkscope for Omaha-8 heads-up SNG" or something of the sort in the search box for Google.

I'm not sure if you'll find what you want or not using Google, but it's a better bet than vB's internal search engine for finding the kind of thing you're seeking.

If something like that were posted in this forum it would probably be in a monthly "catch all" or a monthly "low content" thread. Once you open a monthly "catch all" or a monthly "low content" thread for this forum, you might have better luck than I do using the vB internal search engine. Otherwise, you'll just have to wade through the posts in the monthly low content or catch all thread and I can't guarantee that what you seek is even posted there.

Good luck.

Buzz

yes sir, thats the content (LC and Catch All) ive been searching thru.

google is a good idea , thank you.

Whats the typical buy-in for 4/8 Omaha/8 in a casino? What would be a good buy-in for a newb (me) who is likely to player tighter than hell the first couple times?

The minimum in some (but not all) casinos is $80 for a 4/8 game. Some other casinos have a lower minimum buy in.

I generally buy in for a rack ($100). You can re-buy if you need more chips. If I get down to $60, I generally rebuy, probably for another rack. I don't like to buy in for too many chips because then if you win early you have this mountain of chips in front of you and attract attention to yourself.

I prefer to keep as low a profile as possible, and try to subtly appear as stupid as possible. (Poker is a game of deception).

Very tight play for a beginner is a good idea. After a while you'll stand out as a nit and won't tend to get much action when you enter a pot. You can make that image work for you if you're clever.

Buzz

^^^ Thanks, good advice.

Hello.
Can someone recommend any PLO8 free VOD's?
I have too many questions during my own play so I want to see some solid game process with my own eye's.

Google "PLO8 free VODs."

You'll get a listing of some free sites. I don't know how good the videos are.

Buzz

Dan Deppen (campfirewest) and Mike Six (predator06) have some videos that used to be on Stox I think, not sure if they are on Cardrunners now, or what the deal with that is. I also believe the user gregory might have some videos on deuces cracked. This is all off the top of my head, so you'd have to check to see.

i was hoping sum1 could clear up a bit of internet poker lingo 4 me. during the term PL25, i am wondering exactly what game this is referring to. i know there are different levels with different numbers. wat are the blinds for this game? I know that this term refers to either the max buy-in or the min-buy in, but WHICH one is it? honestly, i've tried to let the context of posts fill me in on this info, but this term type usually comes with no context, from what i've seen.

My guess is "PL" means "pot limit" and the 25 refers to either the big blind or the buy-in in € (euros), $ (dollars), or ¢ (cents).

If the 25 refers to the big blind, most likely the big blind is 25¢ (25 cents). If the 25 refers to the buy-in, most likely the buy-in is 25€ (25 euros) or $25 (25 dollars). The rest should be clear when you read the message associated with it.

Was "PL25" used somewhere in this forum? If so, tell us who wrote the post and we can probably figure it out.

Buzz

i see that notation used frequently. its seems the way its used that its a common understanding. can probably be figured out w/ context.

It should be referring to the buy-in 99% of the time. More specifically, 1 buy-in = 100 big blinds (since that's the historical max buy-in for online games).

thanks!

Hi - am new to O8.

I'm currently having a go at the 6max $5 PL games, and using Buzz's beginners hands posted above as a guide as to what to play.

My question is though how do I play the small blind? There are so many limpers that I am often getting 7 or 8 to 1. Do I play a wider range here because of the odds, or am I still folding because of positional disadavantage after the flop?

Those odds are very deceptive, unless you manage to get all-in by completing.

The reason the odds are very deceptive is because the betting is not over. There are still three betting rounds to go. In pot limit, it's hard to say what will happen on the second, third, and fourth betting rounds. However, with that many players, it's surprising how quickly the pot size can increase to the point where you're playing for all your chips. And acting first, you're at a distinct disadvantage, out of position for those betting rounds.

I advise you to play every bit as tightly as you would from UTG.

In other words, play if you would voluntarily put in the price of the blind, but otherwise forget the odds and fold anything not on the beginner voluntarily playable list. I'm not sure off-hand what I wrote. (I'm using someone else's unfamiliar computer to type this and can barely read it).

As a relative beginner, don't ease up any in the small blind.

Buzz

Thanks for the help.

Yes, completing pf was what I was getting at to maybe flop a monster, but I'll stay with my inner nit utg.

Not sure if any of my hands warrant their own thread yet as I am very much an out and out beginner at O8, so hope it's ok to put one or two here. If not, I'll start threads.

I really haven't got a clue how I should play this type of hand. I'm just riding along with a High hand, but should I be leading out here with my bottom set/two pair on the flop? C/R ing? Or just fold?

Do I get more aggressive on the turn, knowing that anyone with AJ has me beat - actually after typing that I think the answer is no, even though I know the result!

I obv have no Lo hand, and with just one other villain would've played differently.

River is just a meh call

PokerStars - $0.05 PL Hi/Lo (6 max) - Omaha - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 3

UTG: $5.19
MP: $6.73
CO: $3.62
BTN: $4.82
SB: $6.26
Hero (BB): $5.00

SB posts SB $0.02, Hero posts BB $0.05, CO posts DB $0.07

Pre Flop: (pot: $0.14) Hero has 7 J 8 8

UTG calls $0.05, MP calls $0.05, CO checks, fold, SB calls $0.03, Hero checks

Flop: ($0.27, 5 players) A J 8
SB checks, Hero checks, UTG bets $0.05, MP calls $0.05, CO calls $0.05, SB calls $0.05, Hero calls $0.05

Turn: ($0.52, 5 players) J
SB checks, Hero checks, UTG bets $0.05, MP calls $0.05, CO calls $0.05, fold, Hero calls $0.05

River: ($0.72, 4 players) 3
Hero checks, UTG bets $0.05, MP raises to $0.20, CO calls $0.20, Hero calls $0.20, UTG calls $0.15

Edit: Oh, and I had been at the table for about 30 hands. Most of the villains were ~50/0, I was 5/5 iirc. UTG would donk every flop with a min bet, but not much else any other villains. Still just concentrating on my own cards tbh.

First rule of PL5, is don't really expect many folds. That being said, and with your read that UTG will donk any flop, I would go for the check raise here on the flop. It's likely your bottom set is good with no one raising pre-flop (thus, probably no AA**) and with you having a J (less likely anyone else has two of them). I think unless you can thin the field substantially you won't be good by the river so you need to raise to TRY and get rid of some of these min-bet callers. Once you do that, I ship turn assuming you will get calls by 23** and J with no ace or eight a good amount of the time at PL5. Bottom set can lead to some pretty thin spots, but at PL5, I think you just get called with so much worse so often that you can go for thin value. As played I also call river because you are getting pretty good odds on a call, IMO.

I'm sure there are arguments for keeping the pot small. I can see how this would have been difficult to play at a table of maniac PL5ers.

BTW, feel free in the future to make a thread rather than posting in this thread and you might get more responses.

Fine to put hands here. Fine to put hands in the monthly catch-all (formerly low content) thread. Fine to make a separate thread for each hand (so long as you have at least one very specific question that might involve discussion.

Note that people with different skill levels may respond differently. Note that people with different playing styles may respond differently. Note that people with different playing experiences may respond differently. And all of those are sometimes "correct" for some tables or groups of opponents. This is a discussion forum (often for discussion of strategy and tactics).

Tarvaris has already responded. My guess is the answer provided by Tarvaris is probably fine. I'll answer separately, without first reading Tarvaris's response. It will probably be a different perspective because we have different experiences and backgrounds.

It's not a fold. Either lead or go for a check/raise on the second betting round (flop).

Fine. Hero doesn't have a very good starting hand, but has posted the big blind and gets to see the flop for free if he so chooses. And that would be my choice with this starting hand.

I don't like your line of play here. Not at all. Yet it has some merit in that you have successfully disguised your hand. (At least no one will be able to put you on a set of eights for your insipid check/call).

But I'd either directly bet or go for a check/raise. In other words, I'd take a more aggressive line.

I, on the other hand, don't know the result yet. Anyone with AJ** or AA** has you beat and there's not much you can do about it. (From what you can see, AJ** or AA** are approximately equally likely). But none of your four active opponents probably has one of those hands.

Some players (but not everybody) always or almost always raise pre-flop with aces. Some players (but not everybody) raise pre-flop with either of these hands. The absense of such a pre-flop raise makes them a bit less likely than normal, but from what you can see, roughly one time out of eight with this many opponents, you're going to lose. That calculation is way, way beyond beginner level. Thus your post probably should have it's own separate thread. I'll leave it here since you started it here, but I'm not going to explain that calculation to any greater depth.

At any rate, you'll usually (seven times out of eight) have a winner for high but one time out of eight you should expect to take a loss. And that's just the way it goes in Omaha-8. Sometimes you win and sometimes you lose.

Moreover, from what you can see on the turn, there are 23/44 missing cards that will enable low on the river and 21/44 missing cards that won't enable low on the river.

So all in all, if you play passively, you should expect to
• scoop about 7/8*21/44=~42%,
• split with low about 7/8*23/44=~46%
• and take it on the chin about 1/8*44/44=~12%.

Something like that.

And that's very good for you. But rather than playing passively on the turn (third betting round), you should be very aggressive in an attempt to reduce the percentage you'll have to split the pot with low. Hope you can drive out your opponents who are hoping for low. And if you can't induce your low-drawing opponents, at least make them pay through the nose.

This is pot limit and if you can expect someone to bet behind you when you check, you should go for a check/raise. Otherwise, and if you already check/raised on the previous betting round, simply bet the pot.

If you get raised here, back off and just call, and also check/call on the river. The reason is, if you get raised here, you have to seriously consider the distinct possibility that one of your opponents does indeed have AA** or AJ**.

I guess you mean on the turn (third betting round). I'm not sure why you would have played it differently with only one opponent. In my humble opinion, you missed a value bet (although not a sure thing) with four opponents.

Impossible for me to determine what's going on with your opponents after your too-passive play on the second and third betting rounds. I think the hand plays differently if you're more aggressive on the second, and especially the third betting rounds.

Meh. (shrug)

Now I'll read the response of Tarvaris, but unless I see something grossly wrong, I won't comment. (Tarvaris's response is fine and probably sufficient).

Thanks, Tarvaris.

Buzz

Thanks both for the responses. Those calculations you refer to look interesting, Buzz, but I'll save asking that question for another day.