Welcome to the zany world of O8!

Not alone at all. Here's a tricky one for you, that it wouldn't be uncommon to see experienced dealers or players get wrong at the table.

A26K vs AJT7 (which is a terrible O8 hand - DON'T voluntarily play this!)

Board is Q - 3 - 4 - 2 - 6 . Who wins low?

I have to disagree, strongly depends on the game format, AJT7 is a top10-28 in
a HU AI. In a FR deepstack PLO8 or an LO8 game i would agree, in short/medium stacked
NLO8 tourney formats its a can be a monster.

Dealers get that wrong? Hmmmm.

Point taken. I had FR LO8 in mind, where it's pretty trashy.

Yeah, quite a bit. I'd love to play where you do if you have confidence they'd get that right all the time.

Its the beginners thread, so you should probably give the answer.

A26K wins the low with a 6-low (or "live ace"): 6-4-3-2-A, which beats a 7-low: 7-4-3-2-A.

This confuses people because the 6 and the 2 are both counterfeited, but the four cards 6 or lower mean that the double counterfeit isn't a problem.

Hello, all!

I've recently started playing this wonderful game and I'm loving it!

I have a question about folding the nut low/nut low draw. Say I'm at a short handed table and in the BB with A2xx with no suits. 3-4 people limp, the SB completes and the flop comes 67Q with two suits, where my only chance to even win half of the pot is to make a low (I have no backdoor draws whatsoever). So far i have automatically just check/folded on those kind of flops even if it was only a min bet on the flop.

I have also folded the bare nut low on monotone flops such as: 675,783 etc.

But i'm guessing it would be a mistake to fold A2xx(no backdoor draws) on a flop of BWW (Broadway, wheel, wheel; where wheel is not a 2)

P.S.
This is at the micros, online

• The main danger when you flop a bare nut low is getting fractionated (mostly quartered, but occasionally sixthed, and more rarely eighthed).
• A secondary danger is getting counterfeited on the turn or river.

• If you're at a full table (9 or 10 players) when you're dealt A299, and when you end up with the nut low at the showdown another player or two will also have been dealt a hand with at least one ace and at least one deuce (A2**) about two times out of five.
• If you're playing six max (and have five opponents), and when you're dealt a bare nut low (say, for example, A299), and when you end up with the nut low at the showdown another player or two will also have been dealt a hand with at least one ace and at least one deuce (A2**) about one time out of four.

In either case (full table or six max) when you're dealt a bare nut low, without an extra ace or deuce, you should expect to get counterfeited (by another ace or deuce appearing on the turn or river) about 25% of the time. Here's the math:
P=1-C(39,2)/C(45,2)
P=1-39*38/45/44
P=0.2515

Thus when you're dealt a hand like A,2,9,9 at a full table, and the flop is 6,7,8, you should expect to win half the pot about .6*.75=0.45 or 45% of the time, and a quarter or sixth of the pot about .4*.75=0.30 or 30% of the time. For the other 25% of the time, you might still win low with a live ace or deuce.

With five opponents at six max, those percentages would be:
.75*.75=0.5625 or about 56% for half the pot and
.25*.75=0.1875 or about 19% for a quarter or sixth of the pot. For the other 25% of the time, you might still win low with a live ace or deuce.

Usually [edit](in a fixed-limit game)[/edit]there will be more than enough money in the pot to make up for the times you'll get fractionated or counterfeited. Thus, in general, I think it's a mistake to fold a flopped nut low.

But a bare flopped nut low draw may be a different story. The difference is you won't always make a low when you flop a low draw. With A,2,9,9 after a flop of K,7,8, for example, you need to see either a 3, 4, 5, or 6 as at least one of the cards on the turn or river, without the other card being an ace or deuce. You have 16 outs, 6 anti-outs, and 23 bricks.
16*15/2+16*23=488 ways (out of 990) to have favorable turn and river cards. 488/990=0.49.

Instead of ending up with the nut low 75% of the time (which is your probability of ending up with the nut low if you flop the made nut low without counterfeit protection), you end up with the nut low slightly less than half of the time when you flop a draw to the nut low.

You have to decide, on the basi

Buzz, thank you very much for the detailed explanation! I enjoy maths, so it made for a very interesting read!

Upon second thought, purely based on logic it just seemed a little too weak-tight to fold the nut low and your answer confirmed that. I guess at times selective memory (e.g. the times when I got quartered) got the best of me and I folded the nut low.

Assuming this is big bet (pot-limit or no-limit), and you're new to O8, folding in these situations is generally fine. As you gain experience in these games, you should be looking for situations where:

1. you can use your made half or half-pot draw to semibluff, with a reasonable expectation of winning the whole pot because your opponent can't call down with, say, third pair/no low to show down against your no pair/nut low.
2. you can make as little as nut low plus one pair for a two-way hand and bet it mercilessly for value, knowing that bad big-bet O8 players will call down with nut low no pair to get quartered.

Learn to exploit those two situations, then learn to distinguish which one is appropriate when, and you'll be a superstar at this game.

That statement seems to pertain to fixed-limit O8, yet I took the questioner's mention of a "minimum bet" to imply pot-limit or no-limit. (It could also be a way of saying one small bet.) atothek, could you please clarify?

I'm sorry I didn't specify the game type. Yes, I was referring to pot-limit games.


Wow! While semibluffing with the nut low draw/nut low to win the whole pot is something I have been experimenting with, I haven't even thought about #2! That just seems like an excellent piece of advice for the lower stakes, and one which should increase one's winrate dramatically I would imagine.

I took your question to refer to fixed-limit games. I edited but accidentally clumsily lopped off the bottom of my original post. I don't remember today exactly what it was. Sorry.

Starting with A299, you end up with the nut low the same percentage whether the game is (1) fixed-limit, (2) pot-limit, or (3) no-limit. But the amount it will cost you and the possibility for bluffing or being bluffed is different in all three game types. Consequently tactics and strategy are different for the three different game types.

AKQJ10 has given you good advice for a pot limit game. (Thanks, AK!J10).

Yes. Excellent advice. In general, it's a good tactic in fixed-limit too.

Buzz

Hello, all!

I've noticed that most of you use propokertools to run equity simulations. Has anybody tried pokererstrategy omaha equity siumlator?

Equilab is nicer to use than the web based PPT version (imo) but can't produce all the same data (which you may or may not need, depending on your simulation purposes).

Thanks : ) That's what I wanted to know but actually forgot to ask in my post!

I was asking because I'm not too familiar with either of the simulators, so I just wanted to hear people's opinions.

I heard that variance in LO8 is very low. How does the variance in PLO8 compare?

It has been a couple of days since you posted your question and since nobody else has responded, I'll give it a shot.

I have no proof, but I think variance in PLO8, in general, is probably much higher than in LO8.

If you're interested in decreasing your own variance, consider
• setting a session loss limit,
• choosing conservative, rather than wild, opponents, and
• playing more conservatively yourself.

Just my opinion.

Buzz

In general variance in big-bet games is greater than in limit games of similar stakes (although that question is hard to define). However, people think it's the reverse because edge is often much greater in big-bet games, so "swinginess" (probability of a losing session or a downswing of $x) is lower. Search the LHE forum for swinginess within the past 3 months for a detailed discussion.

I agree, this is a great explanation and I'm glad you are taking the time to write this up.

Thanks.

However, what I wrote is not, strictly speaking, correct. I should have included an important qualifying clause. I should have written:

• If you're at a full table (9 or 10 players) when you're dealt A299, and when you end up with the nut low at the showdown another player or two will also have been dealt a hand with at least one ace and at least one deuce (A2**) about two times out of five.
• If you're playing six max (and have five opponents), and when you're dealt a bare nut low (say, for example, A299),and when you end up with the nut low at the showdown another player or two will also have been dealt a hand with at least one ace and at least one deuce (A2**) about one time out of four.

I'll go back and edit to correct the original.

Thanks.

Buzz

I just started dabbling into some plo8 a few days ago and not having a whole lot of success which book/articles would be good for a beginner to beat the micro plo8 tables?

Here's a link to our book containment thread, in which various Omaha-8 books are discussed.
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/44...thread-737104/

But that posted, I don't think you've exactly asked the right question.

I think to be successful at Omaha-8 poker, you need to learn the fundamentals of poker and also the fundamentals of Omaha-8. There's quite a lot involved in both, but learning should be fun for you.

And then I think you should learn some fundamentals of pot-limit Omaha-8.

After you learn those fundamentals, then you try to out-think and out-play your opponents. Learning to do that should be fun too.

I don't think there's anything written specifically about how to beat the micro plo8 tables.

I could be wrong, and if I am, hopefully someone will correct me.

Buzz

Thanks for the response i was able to find a book on plo8 in the book containment thread.
I do agree that my question was a bit vague. i was really asking for a basic nut peddling/abc style which is usually best at the passive candy bar stakes,but im sure after reading the plo8 book i will be able to adapt the strategy to fit these stakes

As with most poker games, I think starting hand selection and position are the two most important factors. In a split game like PLO8, I think a good hand has 2 factors:

1) A reasonable chance of having nut/nut.
2) Reasonable visibility after flopping the nut high OOP.

Most good hands will contain A2 or A3. An A2 or A3 hand that has 4 low cards in general is very strong and easy to play. I am definitely seeing a flop with any suited or connected A2 or A3.

Here are some of the hands that look good but I consider trap hands and usually don't like them, especially OOP:

1) Overpairs. KK56 for example. On K52hh, you may have the nut high, but you are going to have a very tough time playing a lot of turns and rivers.

2) Middle cards: 789Tds for example. You'll usually be drawing for half as when you make the nut straight, someone will have a low.

3) Garbage A2: A2J7r for example. You really can't make a high hand and will often be hoping to hang on for half or a quarter.

These hands have much more value in a limit structure where you are more likely to get more multi-way action and great pot odds.

To beat micro stakes PLO8, consider playing really TAG (tight aggressive) and expand it from there. Play out of position with premiums and in position with respectables and things will be pretty easy. GL