Quote:
Originally Posted by TheMainEvent
The particular game I'm talking about is a 10/20 game at a local club, where the play is so bad that it's basically my motivation to learn omaha hi/lo better.
It's probably an average of 7 players to a flop, and even though I'm well known as the tightest player at the table, my raises don't mean anything to my opponents in terms of what they think about my hand range, the only impact it might have is making them fold total garbage like K972 just because it's $20 instead of $10. Even then it might not matter.
Sounds like a juicy game.
Quote:
I guess my raises can never be bad considering how much better the hands I play are then the hands my opponents play, but I guess I'm wondering about balancing with your second point. Me raising preflop makes them pay for playing bad hands, but it also makes their postflop mistakes like chasing a 4th nut low or backdoor hands or weak flush draws less egregious.
Very astute observation! Because the pot size is bigger, everybody is getting more favorable odds to call a fixed-limit bet. Yes, that's true.
But note:
• Hands that are the best on the river are the ones that win.
• Hands that have the best chance of winning on the river are the best hands on the turn.
• Hands that have the best chance of being best on the turn are the best hands after the flop.
• Hands that have the best chance of being best after the flop are the best starting hands.
In other words, if your starting hand is better than your opponent(s), then you have the best chance of being a winner on the river.
Along the way, things often change. You can have the best hand before the flop and then the worst hand after the flop. Or you can have the best hand after the flop and the worse hand after the turn. Or you can have the best hand after the turn and the worse hand after the river. In other words, just because you have the best starting hand or the best hand somewhere along the way, in general there's no guarantee you'll win.
However, although there's no guarantee, the best hand at the start does have the best chance of being the best hand on the river. (Otherwise it wouldn't be the best hand at the start).
This may be somewhat confusing and perhaps that's because of the words I'm using to express myself. If one starting hand is T994 and another is AK32, the better hand is not T994, even though if the game were stopped with no cards dealt to the board, the pair of nines would beat AK. Rather, the AK32 hand is better than the T992 hand, because we know there will be five board cards added to both hands and we know (or can simulate to show) the five board cards, when combined with two of the cards from AK32 will usually make a better hand than the same five board cards when added to T992. Here's the simulation:
Hand | Pot equity | Scoops | Wins Hi | Ties Hi | Wins Lo | Ties Lo |
---|
AsKh3d2c | 60.95% | 512,774 | 512,774 | 0 | 586,504 | 0 |
Ts9h9d4c | 39.05% | 275,018 | 573,234 | 0 | 0 | 0 |
(Interestingly, T994 does win more for high than AK32, but it's greatly inferior in scooping and T994 can't make a low).
In rankings, AK32 is vastly superior to T994, as shown below:
Omaha Hi/Lo Hand Ranking (ProPokerTools)
Rankings for AsKh3d2c
Ranking Description Average Best Worst
10H 10-handed iterative (default) 4.0 4.0 4.0
3H 3-handed iterative 6.0 6.0 6.0
6H 6-handed iterative 4.0 4.0 4.0
VR vs. random hand 10.0 10.0 10.0
Rankings for Ts9h9d4c
Ranking Description Average Best Worst
10H 10-handed iterative (default) 97.0 97.0 97.0
3H 3-handed iterative 98.0 98.0 98.0
6H 6-handed iterative 98.0 98.0 98.0
VR vs. random hand 97.0 97.0 97.0
Interestingly, although AK32 is vastly superior to T994 in terms of hand rankings, it's only about a 60:40 heads-up favorite. That's typical for Omaha-8 and I think much different from Texas hold 'em.
At any rate, some Omaha-8 starting hands are better than others because they win more. When you play fewer and better starting hands than your opponents, other things being equal, then you should be favored to win.
Bottom line: Even though you still have to out-play your opponents after the flop, and it's more difficult to do that with more money in the pot, under the circumstances you have described, it seems proper for you to raise before the flop with every hand.
(I have to add that those circumstances are hard for me to believe but if you say so...)
Buzz