can someone please explain to me why i won money here at showdown?
cutoff wins the high with the flush,right?
but doesn't he have the better low too?



Grabbed by Holdem Manager
Limit Hi-Lo Omaha $0.50(BB) Replayer
SB ($6.40)
BB ($29.20)
UTG ($13.55)
UTG+1 ($120)
UTG+2 ($17.29)
MP1 ($6.68)
MP2 ($33.53)
CO ($23.48)
Hero ($26.79)

Dealt to Hero K 8 4 A

fold, fold, fold, fold, fold, CO raises to $1, Hero calls $1, fold, BB calls $0.50

FLOP ($3.25) 7 5 2

BB checks, CO bets $0.50, Hero raises to $1, BB calls $1, CO raises to $1.50, Hero calls $0.50, BB calls $0.50

TURN ($7.75) 7 5 2 3

BB checks, CO checks, Hero bets $1, BB folds, CO calls $1

RIVER ($9.75) 7 5 2 3 4

CO bets $1, Hero calls $1

CO shows A A 3 6
(Pre 65%, Flop 84.2%, Turn 15.6%)

Hero shows K 8 4 A
(Pre 35%, Flop 15.8%, Turn 84.4%)

CO wins $8.52
Hero wins $2.83

villian plays the A3 from his hand and 245 from the board to make a wheel (A-5);
hero plays the A4 from his hand and 235 from the board to make a wheel (A-5);
villian gets 3/4, hero gets a 1/4.

so ,if both have the same 5 card hand it doesn't matter that my 4 is higher than his 3?
and why aren't the 4 and the 3 counterfeid?i thought i can't use cards for a low hand that are also on the board.

board is 5432, hero has A4, villian has A3
you both choose 3 cards from the board to make the best 5 card low hand.

you want to choose the 3 lowest possible cards from the board, but you already have a 4 in your hand. so instead of choosing the 2, 3 and 4, you choose the 2, 3 and 5.
combined, you have 5 (board), 4 (own hand), 3 (board), 2 (board), A (own hand) = 5-A, wheel, best possible low hand.

villian also wants to choose the lowest possible cards from the board, but he already has a 3 in his hand. so instead of choosing the 2, 3 and 4, he chooses the 2, 4 and 5.
combined, he has 5 (board), 4 (board), 3 (own hand), 2 (board), A (own hand) = 5-A, wheel, best possible low hand, and similar to yours.

the 4 from your hand and 3 from villian's hand are counterfeited in the way that it doesn't take specifically A3 or A4 to make a wheel. instead, any A+another wheel card makes the wheel.

think about it, if the flop comes 235 to your A4, you have the wheel. if the turn comes a 4, now you don't have the wheel anymore? of course not. you just use the same cards from the flop to make your wheel and don't use the turn card (the 4).

wheel can't lose, because you can't go lower than that.

but when you have an A4 and the flop comes 236, again, you have the nut low, but it's not the wheel, so you can't still lose.

if the turn comes a 4, you obviously don't improve and still have 6432A (now only 2nd nut low) but now can lose to anyone with A5 (who uses the 234 from the board to make a wheel) whom you had beat (he had 2nd nut low on the flop, 6532A) before.

similarly, if the turn comes an A, you obviously don't improve and still have 6432A (now only 2nd nut low) but now can lose to anyone with 45 (who uses the A23 from the board to make a wheel) whom you had beat (he had 3rd nut low on the flop, 65432) before.

str8 or better has explained it. But I'll reply too.

Right.

No. You both have wheels for low.

You use the ace and the four from your hand and the deuce, trey, and five from the board to make a wheel.

CO uses the ace and trey from his hand and the deuce, four, and five from the board to make a wheel.

You both end up with 5432A (a wheel) for low.

Buzz

thank you for helping me out.
---->
always good to know the rules of the game you're playing...

do you guys know where to find any good strategy articles and/or videos about o8 ? specially plo8 and nlo8
tyty

GLGLGL

o8poker.com

cardrunners.com

thanks a lot bro

glglgl

Perhaps this has been asked before, in which case I apologise, but I could not find anything.

Does anyone know if there is any video coverage material on PLO8 live events, WSOP or otherwise? I'm very much a hobby player but also like to watch poker matches. PLO hi material can be found quite easily online, but PLO8 coverage seems almost non-existent.

For TV, nothing. Only thing would be PokerNews text updates for WSOP events.

there is no plo8 to be found rly. check out the HORSE wsop coverage on youtube for some FLO8.

Please show support in this thread, b/c Merge HQ are supposedly subscribed ATP:
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/28...l#post32455904

what is a good site for plo8 tournaments? ( i would not deposit money on unsafe networks, eg merge or cake)

does pokerstars.fr have plo8 traffic?

The site does not offer this game for real money.

So I know a good BR for limit games is 300 big bets

Whats the average stop loss (or buy in) per session for limit games? And what game should i chose to build a BR between Stud and O8?

I don't know. Casinos generally have a minimum buy-in and allow one short re-buy in between times for minimum re-buys. The minimum varies from casino to casino, between about 7 big bets and 10 big bets, something like that. Some individuals start with the minimum buy-in. Others start with more.

The average buy-in has never concerned me much, since I have no control over the amount with which other players start. Casino employees enforce the minimum buy-in rule. I haven't noticed that it's a problem.

Whichever game you're better at playing relative to the other players seated at the table.

Buzz

Probably just an oversight, but a big one: No discussion of bankroll is ever meaningful without considering winrate, at least an implicit one.

That seems patently absurd in the abstract, but i did find an example from HE: AK > JT (same suits) > 22 (other suits) > AK. That's pretty rare, though, i'd imagine based largely on counterfeits that can occur with JT vs. 22 and JT's straight value. I'd like to see a similar example for O8, where you have to use two cards and counterfeits are something different.

It's clearly correct if we let the game conditions vary over the three observations, e.g. if hand C is something like KsK45 that's trash in a multiway pot, hence way behind hands A and B, but then we measured it against hand A in a HU steal situ.

Maybe so.

I don't understand what you mean by "where you have to use two cards and counterfeits are something different."

But it’s not really hard to find three hands such that
hand A>hand B
hand B>hand C
hand C>hand A
(which is all I was saying).

Here are three for an example. Let
ATTA : be hand A
K3K2 be hand B,
9876 be hand C

ProPokerTools Omaha Hi/Lo Simulation

1,086,008 trials (Exhaustive)

Hand	Pot equity	Scoops	Wins Hi	Ties Hi	Wins Lo	Ties Lo
AsThTdAd	59.91%	497,592	803,763	0	0	0
Kh3sKd2c	40.09%	282,245	282,245	0	391,824	0

ProPokerTools Omaha Hi/Lo Simulation

1,086,008 trials (Exhaustive)

Hand	Pot equity	Scoops	Wins Hi	Ties Hi	Wins Lo	Ties Lo
Kh3sKd2c	52.69%	358,000	546,904	0	335,623	1,215
9s8s7d6c	47.31%	298,969	539,104	0	286,242	1,215

ProPokerTools Omaha Hi/Lo Simulation

1,086,008 trials (Exhaustive)

Hand	Pot equity	Scoops	Wins Hi	Ties Hi	Wins Lo	Ties Lo
9s8s7d6c	53.76%	426,419	426,419	0	537,664	0[
AsThTdAd	46.24%	344,643	659,589	0	0	0

I don't know if that's exactly what you want, but I think it supports that statement I made in this thread (more than six months ago).

This thread is intended to answer straightforward beginner questions.

Please respect that.

Buzz

Thanks, Buzz, that's exactly what I was looking for.

My point about counterfeits didn't make any sense; i just meant that JT benefits vs 22 from the fact that JT wins on 77663 in hold 'em. In 2-card Omaha (aka Greek hold'em) 22 would beat JT on that same board. But it doesn't matter, because the same applies to AK. It's surprising to me that straight potential means that much, but apparently it does. Weird.

I'll have to ponder your Omaha example. Not sure what's disrespectful about requesting examples.

You're welcome. Perhaps I should have provided that example when I wrote my original response (over six months ago), but I didn't and I don't remember why. It's possible (1) I didn't want to make my original response longer than it already was, (2) an example seemed unnecessary at the time and (3) I figured if the person to whom I was responding wanted an example for clarification, she'd ask for one.

There's nothing disrespectful about requesting examples.

What I meant by "Please respect that" is this thread is for newb's questions and responses to those questions.

You're neither a newb nor were responding to a newb's question.

If you want to respond in a timely fashion in this thread to a question in this thread from a newb, please feel free to do so.

However, if you have questions or comments about any other posts in this newb's thread, including this one, please ask or comment in either a new thread or the monthly miscellaneous thread.

Thanks.

Buzz
as co-moderator

What are some guidelines for hands to raise with in a loose FR limit game?

What I'm saying is, if most (6+) players at the table will call no matter what, so thinning the field is completely irrelevant, what hands should be raised purely for value/equity?

Hands that can make the nuts. I don't think there are all that many adjustments, tbh.

Do you mean raise pre-flop?

I personally think you can raise or not with every hand you play.

In my opinion, whether or not you should raise depends on how your raise will affect your opponents. I realize that's a vague answer, but although the game is Omaha-8 you still have to "play poker."

I don't think that's realistic, unless somehow your raises have stopped having any meaning to your opponents.

If that is what has happened to you, you might consider switching gears (changing styles). For example, be selective about the hands you choose to play. Don't play and raise with every hand dealt to you. Don't even play every hand dealt to you.

Let's say Hero voluntarily plays about three out of ten hands dealt to him. If so, and if Bozo whose pre-flop raises have little or no meaning raises before the flop, Hero should call (or re-raise) with any hand he'd be voluntarily playing. Notice there was hand selection involved on Hero's part but not on Bozo's part.

If you're playing a group of opponents such that six players will be playing any four cards they're dealt whether you raise or not, then you're getting 6 to 1 full pot odds and 2.5 to 1 half pot odds to introduce fresh money into the pot. Under these circumstances when you think the probability of scooping is 1/7 or greater, then raise - and when you think the probability of winning half of the pot is 2/7 or greater, then raise.

A major complication is your hand will generally have some probability of winning the whole pot and also some probability for winning half the pot. Without knowing your opponent's cards or the cards on the flop, it's difficult to know what those probabilities are. At least I don't know what they are.

If you're selective about the hands you play while your six opponents are not selective, then it seems right to me to raise with every hand you play. However, I hasten to add that's not realistic, at least in my own experience.

(I don't recall ever being in a game of Omaha-8 with six idiots).

The effect of raising with every hand you play will probably simply be to increase your variance. That's my experience.

Once the pot gets too big in fixed-limit Omaha-8, all the decent players in the hand become more or less stuck in the pot. There's not really much skill involved any more once the pot becomes too bloated.

For me, the key to winning at fixed-limit Omaha-8 is to out-play my opponents on the betting rounds after the flop. I think I have a better chance of applying the leverage to accomplish that feat if the initial pot is small compared to the size of my post flop bets.

But do whatever works for you.

Buzz

The particular game I'm talking about is a 10/20 game at a local club, where the play is so bad that it's basically my motivation to learn omaha hi/lo better.

It's probably an average of 7 players to a flop, and even though I'm well known as the tightest player at the table, my raises don't mean anything to my opponents in terms of what they think about my hand range, the only impact it might have is making them fold total garbage like K972 just because it's $20 instead of $10. Even then it might not matter.

I guess my raises can never be bad considering how much better the hands I play are then the hands my opponents play, but I guess I'm wondering about balancing with your second point. Me raising preflop makes them pay for playing bad hands, but it also makes their postflop mistakes like chasing a 4th nut low or backdoor hands or weak flush draws less egregious.