Can anyone point me in the direction of any/all threads/post about " PLO8 - HU SnG 's" ?

Have you tried a search, either with the site's search function or through Google? That would probably be the best way.

I did...not much about PLO8-HU SNG Strategy mostly PLO8(FR or6max SnG's)...

Maybe I sure start a PLO8 HU-SnG Discussion Thread


Haven't tried Google yet....

I have more luck using Google as a search engine than the internal search engine provided with the system 2+2 is currently using. The 2+2 search engine works reasonably well for me if I'm looking up names, but not well for much else. Maybe it's just me.

The threads in the Omaha-8 forum are not organized in such a way as to quickly be able to find all the threads about PLO8 - HU SnG 's. There are various threads about aspects of this topic, but someone would have to sift through hundreds or thousands of threads looking for titles related to this topic.

You're welcome to do that, if you like, and it might not even be a chore for you if that's your area of interest. But it's not my area of interest and it would definitely be a chore for me to do it. We do have the recent threads labeled with
if they involve a discussion about limit (fixed-limit),
if they involve a discussion about limit pot-limit, and
if they involve a discussion about limit no-limit.

But unless someone wants to do the searching for you, you'll have to do the searching yourself.

There's a lot of good stuff that gets posted in this forum, and if you're a serious student of the game, I think it's probably worth your effort. But it will take effort on your part to find what you need.

If you're interested, scan through, concentrating on threads labeled with a , and looking at the titles of these threads for something related to sit 'n goes plus heads up.

Fine. I'll label it with a if you can't figure out how to do that yourself.

There's lot's of stuff there, some of it comes back to this forum.

Try
http://www.bing.com/search?q=Sit%27n...3&ShowAppsUI=1

Buzz

okay, since for some strange reason i can't reply to the personal message i got from niss, i'm replying here to the topic of my closed thead:
i'm pretty sure thise exact question hasn't been asked yet, because i did a search and didn't find anything. again, my question was which vpip and pfr would be optimal - assuming game theory optimal play
if there is such a thread please give me link, or please re-open my thread because i think it could lead to an interesting discussion in my opinion.
thanks

garw,

I don't really see why your thread is going to be much different than the other threads we've had on the issue, but I'll re-open it and see if it leads somewhere new.

The following is quoted directly from the FAQ of the "About the Forums" forum. That's where you should probably go to have your questions about 2+2 forum operation answered.

• "Why can't I use private messages?
  
  To prevent spam we require that new members participate in the community before private messaging is activated. Normal use of the forums will automatically enable this feature.
  
  While we don't disclose the exact requirements, they are easy to meet. We have no wish to limit those new to 2+2 who are only looking to be a part of the community."

OK. That works.

That got a chuckle out of me. Good for me to laugh. Thanks.

For what it's worth, I try Google or Bing when I want to find anything aside from poster's names in these forums.

Looks like Niss reopened your thread.

Your question has been discussed on this forum many times, but probably not stated using exactly the same words and perhaps no one has asked for the answer from a game theory optimum point of view. Searching for threads for you sounds like a chore. However, since you've asked, here's one, related to the topic:
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/44...estion-646515/
(I googled to find it for you).

Since you've gotten your question into the newb's thread, I'll respond. But I won't be able to answer it completely and definitively. For starters, how many hands you should play is obviously dependent on the number of players who are dealt hands. You play more hands heads-up than you play in a ten handed game. As there are fewer opponents, you play more hands.

And different individuals have different opinions about how pre-flop raises should be handled. My own opinion, stated many times but here it is again, is whether to raise or not is more dependent on how your opponents are realistically expected to behave in response, now and in the future, than on the cards in Hero's hand. I realize that's very vague, but it has to be. You have to "play poker." "Playing poker" has partly to do with playing your particular opponent(s) and what the interaction between you has been.

Maybe I can sort of answer one question for you...

Looking at your question from a game theory optimal way, at a ten handed table, if each opponent plays optimally and just as well as the others, each should win as often as any other... (isn't that so?)... and that logically is about 10% of the time.

(That should make perfect sense to you, since 10*10%=100%.)

But of course no one knows, before the flop, what hand will be the best after the flop. Q972-rainbow, a horrid starting hand for a full game, is the best hand after a flop of QQQ. And (A3)(A2), although still a great hand after a flop of QQQ if no opponent has the missing queen, is destined to failure if an opponent happens to have the missing queen.

If you only play the top 10% of hands, which would certainly include (A3)(A2), you won't end up with your 10% share of winners, because although (A3)(A2) ends up a winner more than any other Omaha-8 hand, it doesn't win every time. Moreover, if you play only the top 10% of your starting hands, you'll tend to get very little action when you do see the flop.

I think at a full table against intelligent, tough, tight, aggressive opponents, there are only about 15% of hands that are expected to be profitable. However, that is not to say that you should only see 15% of flops. If you only play the top 15% of your starting hands, you'll still tend to get very little action when you do see the flop.

However, to protect newbs while they're learning the game, we recommend players who are learning the game tend to play very tightly (actually too tightly) and then gradually relax those tight standards as they learn the game. That approach seem to be less costly than initially playing too loosely and then gradually tightening up. Feel free to skim through this thread and the FAQ to find information that may be useful to you.

And realistically, you won't be playing against opponents who play an optimal game from a game theory point of view. If your real opponents aren't making any mistakes, then in the long run you won't make any money.

Over the long haul, you tend to lose when you find a game where your opponents are making fewer mistakes than you're making yourself. And you tend to profit when you find a game where your opponents are making more mistakes than you're making yourself.

I play differently and more tightly, in tournaments that in cash games. And I play differently with more opponents than fewer opponents. And mainly I play differently against different opponents. But I find that, in general, in a typical brick and mortar casino, fixed-limit cash game, usually $4/$8 or thereabouts (because that's what is offered cheaply, and I just play for my own recreation, not to make money)... in such a game, if I see the flop with around just under 30% (something like that) of the hands dealt to me in a brick and mortar casino, I usually fare better than if I play more loosely or more tightly.

But, honestly, I know the game reasonably well. I don't recommend that a newb play the game that loosely in a brick and mortar casino.

Note that on-line play is quite different than brick-and-mortar casino or private-home play. I'll generally play more loosely than that in a private-home game and probably more tightly than that for on-line play.

Tournament play depends on the stage in the tournament and other circumstances.

All the above is for fixed-limit. Pot-limit and no-limit involve different considerations. And in any event position is a consideration, more so for pot-limit than fixed-limit, or even, in general, no-limit.

That's my own default style of play, but I do vary my play, depending on the circumstances. Other successful players who post here have their own styles of play, and some of them are better poker players than I am.

There's quite a lot involved. As poker games go, Omaha-8 is one of the more complex games. I don't think you'll get a consensus here on how best to play it.

Buzz

A couple questions that might be quick so I'll post them here. Table is 6/12 LO8, loose pf and somewhat aggressive post.

1. Preflop, should I as a newb be folding (A9)J3 otb to a raise when there have been three callers ahead? This was over the weekend, I don't remember who the raiser was. But I folded this, and I'm not sure if I should have with the suited A, A3, position, and multiple callers, despite the J and 9.

2. I have (A3)KT, no heart. Flop is Q24 with two hearts. There's a bet and a call in front of me, and two left to act. I'm wondering if I should be raising in this spot, hoping to improve my chances of winning the high if a heart comes by getting a small flush draw to fold? Or do I want to just call and encourage callers with my nut low draw?

Thanks!

Edit: Sorry if this needs to be split out. I wasn't sure if each question was enough to merit its own thread.

Call both imo, but I don't play limit or live so ymmv.

No. I don't think so. Not in general. Even as a newb to Omaha-8 you still have to "play poker." You don't want to be stubborn, but you don't want opponents pushing you off playable starting hands either. This starting hand is flawed, but you should want to see the flop with it. (That's my opinion).

Neither the jack nor nine is a particularly good rank to hold. In this case, the ace is working with all the other cards in the hand, but J3, 93 and J9 are not particularly good two card combinations. Mainly you have the suited ace going for high and the ace-trey, but without any counterfeit protection, going for low. (There are obviously some other possibilities, but those, in my mind, are the two main ones that provide pre-flop value to the starting hand).

This starting hand, as you obviously recognize, is substantially better than (A9)J3, but you still have two of the six two card combinations, K3 and T3, that are not working well together and you still have no counterfeit protection for low. But even with the flaws, (A3)KT is still probably the best starting hand at the table, and then seems to have a playable fit with this flop, despite the lack of hearts.

I don't think you'll have much luck getting small flushes to fold in a $6/$12 brick and mortar casino game... But you might be successful getting small flush draws to fold. And that's what you might be facing here, since nobody can have the flush yet.

The probability of the turn being a heart is 11/45 (almost one in four) and the probability of either the turn or river being a heart is 1-34*33/45/44 = 429/990 (about three in seven). If an opponent has two hearts, it's even less.

However meanwhile, Hero has nothing much going for high. In other words, it's not like Hero has some weak high holding to protect for high. Hero doesn't even have a pair. Hero might win high with a wheel, a back-door straight, or something else, but at this point (right after the flop) Hero has zilch to protect for high... not a set, not two pairs, not even one pair. Therefore there's no compelling reason to raise.

(It is true that we're more likely to win with fewer opponents, but it costs us twice as much when we lose, and with fewer opponents we win less when we do win).

You're drawing to the nut low. But you have only 16 outs (for half the pot if you don't get fractionated for low)... and lots of things can go wrong here. I'd generally just limp.

Where a discussion belongs is usually not black or white to me.

The issue of what to do when facing aggression with hands of this type (suited ace-three but with no counterfeit protection for low) seems to me worthy of its own thread. But since you posted in this thread, I'll leave it here for now, pending a possible discussion. (If one gets going, we may move all posts related to the discussion to a separate thread).

My opinion is the newb's thread is for non-controversial questions, questions anyone familiar with the game should be able to answer correctly.

In this particular case it occurs to me that different readers of this forum probably have different points of view and different opinions. And if you post in a separate thread, I think you're more likely to get differing responses. (I don't think everyone reads this newb's thread).

Buzz

call in both.

I -

it's not a shame to fold a playable hand when conditions are unfavorable.
after all, folding does make you money in this game.
however, folding too much doesn't.
with a suited A3 and position, I think you should call.
if the A weren't suited, i'd advise you to fold.

II -

call. make the T a Q and now you have a good reason to raise - mainly for value, but also to thin the field.

cleaning your wheel outs isn't a strong enough reason to raise this flop.
the pot isn't large enough to protect your pot equity at all costs.

so for now you are "pulling", and the beauty of this is that on the turn your hand may very well become "pushing" material.

5 is obviously a great card to push with. you want clean wheels when you go on a ride.

but also, K or even a T can make a turn raise a play worth considering.

It's a very aggressive move, to say the least, but if you read the players in front of you for big draws, a turn raise can win you the pot with as little as two pair (if you raise a turn K and get it 3-ways, many rivers, such as: A, K, Q, T, 4 or 2 can win you the high.

Yeah, the reason I opted to fold was because of that mostly useless 9. J9 does make three straights, but only two are the nuts, and one of those puts two to a low on the board. And although the 9 was suited with the A, the hand would have exactly the same functionality if it was (A3)J9, so I consider the 9 pretty much worthless. (Actually, (A3) is slightly better than (A9) because it can make a straight flush, but whatev.)

But I think given the position, number of callers, other things you and str8 have said, and that I've read, I'll be playing this hand in similar situations. The (A3) seems to have enough strength on its own in this spot, and the AJ keeps me in some high-only flops too.

The counterfeit protection is a great point, and between you and Mastering Omaha/8, I'm glad to understand that part of it now.

Something I didn't consider about the strength of my hand with this particular flop is that if a high card comes on the turn, I pick up a Broadway draw. Add that to the nut low draw and this is a good spot to be in.

Yes, the reason I wondered about a raise was to get marginal hands, like small flush draws or single pairs, to fold, so that if I spiked a straight, or even pair, it would have a better shot at holding up for high. But as you suggest, protecting presupposes something to protect, which I don't have.

I'm going to try this out later on the equity calculator and see what happens.

I'm curious how big the suited effect is. I just tried out propokertools hand rankings. The suited version ranks 14 while the unsuited ranks 29. (Ranks 1 to 100, 1 being the best.)

Created a few hands and ran this sim:

ProPokerTools Omaha Hi/Lo Simulation

600,000 trials (Randomized)

Hand	Pot equity	Scoops	Wins Hi	Ties Hi	Wins Lo	Ties Lo
Ah9hJc3d	19.32%	48,315	102,383	9,744	78,817	24,064
AA**	18.62%	43,037	147,546	6,477	2,986	54,704
A24*	32.45%	70,394	100,166	8,193	243,455	51,505
KQTT	20.27%	92,336	149,766	1,122	0	0
Ks3sJd2d	9.33%	23,322	82,778	9,767	0	0

Without the suited it's only 14.58% here. The number of high wins is cut in half, and the number of scoops drops about 1/3.

My impression is that you and Buzz make a similar point. Which is that there's nothing to protect here. Yet. But in some spots we can look at protecting more marginal "made" hands, maybe even as weak as one pair.

yeah, in some spots. just don't go out there and raise a bet from your right on a flop of 56K when you have AKQQ, trying to fold players behind you.

In fact, you should simply fold. Change one Q to a 2 and now you should at least call, and seriously consider raising (raising favorable turns is another option). The low makes all the difference.

You don't exactly "protect more marginal made hands". It's kind of an holdem misconception. Unless you flopped a straight flush, quads or the nut full house, you don't actually have a "made hand". top set is drawing for the nut full house/quads, the nut flush is drawing for the board not to pair, the nut straight is drawing for the board not to pair/flush/enable higher straights, etc.

What you do have when you flop hands like tptk+nut low draw is pot equity worth pushing. indeed, you don't push hands (you certainly don't push "made hands"), you push pot equity = your share in the pot.

whether to push pot equity or not depends on many variables.
one important variable is the size of the pot (and in LO8, the number of bets in the pot). 40% pot equity is worth 1 bet when there are 2.5 bets in the pot. 25% pot equity is worth 5 bets with there are 20 bets in the pot. you should be more willing to push small edges in a big pot than in a small one.

there's one exception though: the pot might be so big, that players will virtually not fold anything. in which case, your raises shouldn't be designed to push your equity up by getting folds, but rather to get more money in to utilize current pot equity edge (value raises).

Haha yeah. Playing for half a pot with very weak holding = insta-fold.

Yes. Now we're trying to get money in the pot as a favorite to the low, with the added benefit that occasionally our aggression will get us the high.

Yeah, I put "made" in quotes because I think it's a pretty useless notion. I should have found another way to say what I meant. I take it back!

I'm very familiar with the concept of equity from my hold 'em study. I need to learn how it works in Omaha and get comfortable with the numbers. When I flop a flush draw in hold 'em, I don't have to think that I'm 1.85:1. It's burned into my brain. Omaha is a new set of numbers, and on two pots at once.

I don't think it matters much, but I think that ratio (or odds) is better written 1.86:1.
It comes from 703/378.

The flush draw numbers for Omaha-8 are the same as for Omaha-high.
With two cards to a flush on the flop, the odds against Hero making the flush are:
• 1.75:1 with two cards in the flush draw suit (from 630/360)
• 2.06:1 with three cards in the flush draw suit (from 666/324)
• 2.45:1 with four cards in the flush draw suit (from 703/287)

For back-door flushes (one card to a flush on the flop), the odds against Hero making the flush are:
• 21:1 with two cards in the flush draw suit (from 945/45)
• 26.5:1 with three cards in the flush draw suit (from 954/36)
• 34.4:1 with four cards in the flush draw suit (from 962/28)

When computing outs, count back-door flush draws when holding two cards in the suit as worth about one out. That's pretty close.
Count back-door flush draws with three cards in the suit as worth slightly less than one out (sensibly rounds up to one out).

Anyhow, those are the after flop flush draw numbers for you.

An important difference between Omaha-8 and Texas hold 'em (or Omaha-high-only) is that low is usually possible when you make a flush. Because of that, you usually want to be drawing for a decent low when you're drawing for a flush.

Another important difference between Omaha-8 and Texas hold 'em is that you usually don't want to be drawing for less than the second nut flush when you're drawing primarily for a flush.

But when you have made any flush, you should be generally reluctant to fold (depending on your read of your opponent, of course).

Buzz

Thanks!

Good to hear, because that's what I count them for in hold 'em too. The less new math I have to do, the better.

Hadn't thought of that. Makes sense. Eight cards in each suit are low cards, only five are not. Even if you hold two of the low cards in your hand like (A3), it's still 6:5.

This point keeps popping up on here and in the books, and I'm glad to have the reminder. It's like there's some continuum of hand strength between high and low, and when you're drawing mostly (or entirely) to one side of it, your draw better be really strong. Like you said, if you're drawing mostly to the flush, it should be at least second nut. But if you want to draw to the third nut flush, you better also have a good low draw. Second nut maybe?

You mean where you were primarily drawing to something else but happened to catch a weak flush?

I read an interesting point last night in Mastering Omaha/8 somewhat along these lines. IIRC (if I remember correctly), it said you can think about betting weaker runner-runner flushes for value because it's less likely someone has been drawing to it. Something like that.

value bet = a bet designed to get called by worse hands.
figuring to have the best hand is not really a reason to bet the river.

You're welcome.

I never saw the concept phrased quite that way before. But that's a good way to express the idea... Yes, that's the idea!

In my full ring casino games (either nine handed in Los Angeles or ten handed in Las Vegas) I don't generally draw to the third nut flush at all. But as I think about it, drawing to the third nut flush in a six max game would have merit. Assuming your opponents would play 1st nut (ace) and 2nd nut (king) flush draws, you figure to have the best flush draw to queen (3rd nut) roughly two thirds of the time in a six max game.

At any rate, to answer your question, yes, you like a good low draw to go with your flush draw... and the weaker your flush draw, the better your low draw should be. You obviously have to use common sense and play your particular opponents.

Yes.

The idea is: in order to find the probability of winning with a non-nut flush, you multiply 1. the probability of the board ending up with at least three cards in the flush suit by 2. the probability of not being up against a better flush. That product (of the two probabilities) is the probability of winning with the flush if you make it.

From that probability, you compute the odds against making your flush. And you compare those flush odds with the implied pot odds you're getting if you make the flush.

Basically, that's the mathematical approach. If the implied pot odds you're getting are greater than the odds against winning with the flush, then you have favorable odds.

Just like gambling casinos are more or less assured of making money by having the odds on their side for the slot machines and black jack tables, in theory you're more or less assured of making money if you play with the odds on your side. That's the theory, anyhow. You have to use sense when you apply it to poker because you won't get any action from decent poker players if you only play when you have a huge favorable odds edge. (But getting that huge odds edge is really what you want to do, and it turns out to be very possible to get that huge odds edge against some opponents).

So if you're 100% sure of making the flush (because you've already made it), you don't multiply the probability of making the flush by the probability of winning with the flush. You're only interested in comparing the implied pot odds you're getting with the probability of winning with the flush. And usually there will be enough in the pot in a fixed-limit game so that you'll have favorable odds to call a bet with your non-nut flush. Pot-limit and no-limit, are somewhat different because of the increased possible size of the final bet compared with the size of the pot.

Yes. (I agree).

Buzz

Hi

I am new to this forum, unsure if this counted as a stupid question or not, we will see if I get flamed eh.

Playing very low limit eight or better (25 and 50c) on Stars, 6 handed. Built up a wee bankroll on other sites at other games/sites, spent the lot degrading myself in ways too debauched to go into, so starting from scratch again.

Needless to say games are v soft at this level, and am showing good profit after 3 weeks or so- so too early to be definitive, but all going well so far.

First question is: at the short (i.e. 6 max) tables, what general advice would people offer about the degrees to which one should lower one's starting hand requirements? Most of the advice I've read over the years (Cappelletti, Hwang, SS2 etc) focuses on full ring games.

For example- I'm playing all the A2XX and A3XXx, 23XX with some potential and high only hands but how much further to take that?

Eg start playing decent A4 or 24XX hands, even A5 with suited/good high potential? Are any/most A4 combos playable, or not? Also what about 3 wheel cards, with some other potential- eg 245K, suited to the K?

Would appreciate a heads up on this, even if its just a link to other thread

Thanks in advance, comrades

Ben

It depends. Players, whether anyone is short, etc.

Deppen is primarily 6m so you might check that out. That said, I personally think the plo8 literature is a bit nitty. I open good A4 hands in Ep at Fr so it should be okay at 6m. I'd avoid A5 hands other than opening OTB, but you can add some low rundowns to your opening range at most positions (2346 and the like).

Thanks for that response, its helpful to know Im on the right kind of lines.

I should have been clearer that I meant fixed limit eight or better, not pot limit. Does that change your advice?

Ben

Haven't played much limit O8 so idk. I'd think the keys are how often you get called when you open and how often you take the pot down with a cbet. The fewer the players and the higher frequency they fold the flop, the wider you can open.

Hi. Welcome to the forum.

As there are fewer and fewer players, you should loosen up your starting hand requirements.

I'm not sure you're using good hand selection. For example, 23XX is a cut or two below A2XX and A3XX, both A2XX and A3XX really need another wheel card for counterfeit protection, and I'm not sold on high only hands for newbs.

Yes.

Probably most are. Depends on what you mean.

Yes. That's playable if you know the game and your opponents.

Buzz

HI guys, i'd like to learn a new game and a mate suggested omaha hi/lo.

i'm a recreational micro player, omaha is my main game.

all i'm looking for is some basic strategy, starting hands etc.

any reccomended links would be very much appreciated.