Thank you Buzz et al for setting up and maintaining this thread. It is a great source of information for people new to the game, like me.

I've worked through it all, read a few wells, listened a few more times to an old Deuce Plays episode with Mark Gregorich, am working my way through Zee, have SS2 lined up, am reading other threads on the forum, some articles in the 2+2 magazine (Buzz's I believe) and have started playing at the micro stakes. I also spent a lot of time looking at starting hand tactics, mainly using the information on here, playing with PPT and using an excel tool I made.

So, I think I'm doing the right things to get me going, but I have a few basic questions.

1. Is there a simple way to recognise when you are likely to be quartered (or fractionated)?

2. Is there a simple way to recognise whether you have protection?

3. When playing Hold'em, I always used a HUD (HEM). I felt naked without it. However, my early judgement is that in O8 it is less important, with more focus on taking note of how opponents play certain situations (nut draws, hi only, made nuts; IP/ OOP; HU / multi-way, etc). Do those of you play online and have more experience, have a view on using HUD?

Thanks

GQ

Sorry if this had been asked before. What are the odds of any player holding A2XX in an 8 handed game? How much does it change if yourself is holding A2XX?

If you're not dealt cards yourself, the probability of any particular individual player being dealt a hand containing at least one ace plus at least one deuce is 17316/270725=0.06396158, or about one in 15.6. (One in 15.6 means 14.6:1 against).

0.06396158 is also the probability you'll be dealt a hand containing at least one ace and at least one deuce. (14.6 to 1 against).

In an eight handed game the odds against at least one of the players being dealt a hand containing at least one ace and at least one deuce are about 3 to 2 (against). This is figured from the perspective of someone who has no cards. However, if you're looking at your own four cards, then you should consider them, and (depending on how many aces and/or deuces you hold) that changes the odds.

If you're dealt any four card hand with only one ace and only one deuce, the the odds against any one (or two or three) of seven opponents being dealt a hand with at least one ace and at least one deuce are 1.89 to 1 (against).

You don't need to know the exact odds of something. 2 to 1 against, before there is any action is close enough. But if someone is behaving as though he/she has been dealt A2**, then perhaps he/she is actually holding A2**.

By "behaving as though" I mean you have to read the mannerisms (also called "tells"). Every opponent in a poker game probably wants to deceive you, but some individuals are more blatant in their attempts than others. It's fairly common at low limits for opponents to not have what they represent with their betting and with their mannerisms.

One of your tasks as a poker player is to know your opponent's mannerisms better than they know yours.

But to answer your question, before there is any action, when you're holding A2KK, it's about 2 to 1 that none of your opponents in a seven handed game also has a hand containing at least one ace and at least one deuce.

Buzz

You're welcome. I'm pleased that you find it helpful. I don't want to single anyone out, lest I inadvertently ignore a contributor, but I'm not the only one who answers newb's questions in this thread and I appreciate any help I get.

Sometimes. But you have to "read" your opponents to recognize it. By "reading your opponents," I mean ascertaining, on the basis of their mannerisms and betting patterns whether or not they have the cards to fractionate you. For example, if you never or rarely see a particular opponent playing a hand without an ace plus a deuce, then when that opponent plays a hand, you can be reasonably certain he/she has a hand with an ace plus a deuce. If 80% of the time when an opponent raises before the flop, he/she has A2**, then you can be 80% sure that opponent has A2** when he/she raises before the flop. You probably cannot ever be absolutely certain, but sometimes you can be reasonably certain. The pattern of betting for more than one betting round is more complex than the betting for any one round, but yields more information (in terms of an opponent's probable holding). It's difficult, if not impossible, to read all four of your opponent's cards, but sometimes you can pin point two or three cards.

I may not understand what you mean by "protection." If you have a different ranked low card, in addition to your two primary low cards (perhaps a three in addition to an ace and a deuce), you have counterfeit protection.

If you have a second ace in your hand (or a second deuce) you have a measure of protection (but imperfect) from getting fractionated.

If you get "all in" an opponent continuing to bet with the possibility of knocking out a third opponent is affording you a measure of "protection."

I'm unable to give you a very good answer to this question. I'm completely unfamiliar with using HUD for Texas hold 'em.

In Omaha-8, you're still interested in your opponent's statistics. Whatever you can use as an on-line aid in this respect seems worthwhile to me (even it it's not as useful as in Texas hold 'em).

Buzz

Thanks Buzz. It was the first example I had in mind, counterfeit protection. So the more different ranked low cards I have, the better counterfeit protection I have.

Does this thinking sound correct? If I hold A246 on a flop of 358, I have the nut low - in the format "board(hole cards)" it is 853(2A). If an A falls on the turn, the new nut low is 5(4)3(2)A. So even though my A is counterfeited on the turn, I retain the nut low because my 4 gave me counterfeit protection. If I had say A2KQ, then my best low would still be 853(2A), which is not the nut low (not close - beaten by 24, 26, 27, 46, 47, 67).

I had not considered the other forms of protection, so thanks for pointing those out.

GQ

You're welcome.

Yes, that thinking sounds correct.

You should also be thinking of high (and scoop) possibilities. If you hold A246 on a flop of 358, a deuce gives you a wheel plus a six-high straight, probably a scooper - a four also gives you a wheel plus a six-high straight - a six gives you six-high straight (plus the nut low) - a seven gives you an eight-high straight (plus the nut low) - and an ace makes you a wheel. Some of those are more likely scoopers than others, depending on how your opponents are playing.

Buzz

Buzz,

I will be play .5/1-1/2, so this may not matter.

Earlier you posted about not raising to hide hand strength. Would the optimal play be to raise premium hands as well as a few others to balance range and get more in with our strongest holdings?

Did I write that in this thread? Different people at different levels of familiarity with Omaha-8 post in the Omaha-8 forum and I respond differently, trying somewhat to match advice or comments with skill levels. I'm going to have to read through this newb's thread again to see specifically what I have written here in response to newb's posts in this thread.

At any rate, to try to set the record straight, I think you always should "play poker." By "play poker," I mean you adapt your game to cope with your opponents. And when you do that, whatever works best for you is fine.

Some individuals telegraph some of the combinations in their starting hands by predictably raising, especially on the first betting round (before the flop), with certain specific combinations and predictably not raising without these certain specific combinations.

I think that's a mistake when you're playing against opponents who try to reason why you're playing as you are playing.

If you're in over your head, one of the worst players in a fixed-limit game, then playing like a maniac, jamming the pot on the early rounds in order to make the pot large enough that everyone is probably getting favorable odds to continue on the final betting rounds to see the showdown, may actually be your best strategy. By making the hand as much of a crap shoot as possible you take away some of the skill edge of better players on the later betting rounds.

And in general, doing what your opponent doesn't want you to do is not bad advice. I can almost guarantee the better players in your game will cringe if you play like a maniac. They'll adjust their own games to cope with you and they'll beat you if you play like a maniac, but they'll cringe unless you're only raising when you have certain combinations, like AA and A2. (If you only raise with those combinations, they'll lick their chops because they'll have a better idea of what you have than you do of what they have).

However, in general, if you're one of the better players in the same fixed-limit game, I think it's a probably a mistake to turn the game into a crap shoot. If you're one of the better players in the game, in general you want to be able to use your card playing skill edge to your advantage rather than encouraging the pot to be so large that you're more or less forced to continue because you're getting favorable odds to do so because of the size of the pot. In general, you may want to keep the pot in a fixed-limit game initially small so that you'll have more leverage on the later betting rounds. (In terms of this leverage, pot-limit and no-limit are substantially different from fixed-limit).

However you disguise your play when you're playing opponents who are trying to "put you on cards" is fine.

Some individuals, for example, cope with opponents who are trying to put them on cards by (1) always and only raising with premium hands against opponents who will call their raises. These individuals only add random hands when their opponents fold too often to their raises. And then the proportion of random hands added depends on how often they get called.

The idea is to force opponents to pay to play against premium hands. Once they're doing that, it's not necessary to raise with trash. But if your opponents are not paying off when you have the goods, then you start stealing pots when you don't have the goods. It takes considerable poker playing skill to do that well, and it's not really a topic that is intended for this thread.

This newb's thread is intended to answer fundamental questions about the rudiments of playing Omaha-8.

Buzz

What's the best way to learn the strategic differences between straight O/8 and Big O? Are there any good training videos, good threads on 2+2, books, etc? Thanks for any advice.

I'm thinking about purchasing "Hi Lo Split for Advanced Players". Are the concepts still valuable in the games of today?

Yes.

Buzz

Hey guys, im totally new to twoplustwo and somewhat experienced with omaha hi lo mtt play. My user name on stars was hommieg11, had about 1.3k profit i think in hilo mtts. I'm lookin for more instruction on crushing mtts and also basic strategy for cash game play (which mine is abysmal at the moment)

Hi Ryan. Welcome to the forum.

In my opinion, mtt strategy and cash game strategy is not the same. In my opinion, multi-table-tournaments require a different mind set than cash games. And whether either is fixed-limit, pot-limit, or no-limit also makes a difference.

I advise you to define your parameters more closely. In other words, decide specifically what you want to play,
• multi-table-tournaments or cash games, and
• fixed-limit, pot-limit, or no-limit.

Then get some Omaha-8 playing experience under your belt. There are some guidelines here and there in this thread (the newb's thread) to help you do that with a minimum of agony for you.

And then come back to the forum with very specific questions.

There are lots of ways to learn. What is best for one learner may not be best for another. Maybe all you need is some playing time. And/or you might try reading a good book on Omaha-8, or several good books. And/or you might try reading threads in this forum of interest to you. And/or you you might try reading articles in the monthly 2+2 on-line magazine. And/or you might consider getting a tutor or coach. (We don't allow people to advertise their tutoring services in this forum, but there's nothing wrong with your asking for coaching and someone responding to you privately).

If you have a specific question, feel free to ask it in a thread you start, in this (newb's) thread, or in the monthly miscellaneous thread. I can't guarantee you'll always get an answer, but I know your post will be read.

Good luck to you.

Buzz

ive never played this game before and it looks like fun. im playing some free money tables to try and learn it. what advice/tips do you guys have as far as brm, strategy, and selection for this game, and when do you think i should take a crack at it in a live setting? thanks

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It is fun.

Seems like a reasonable approach.

Nobody could adequately answer that series of questions without writing a book, or probably several books.

That one's easy. You find your own kind anywhere you go.

Tell some people you know you'd like to try playing poker. Ask around to find others who are interested in playing poker. If possible, get together with a group of friends and/or acquaintances to play some poker in a private game. Possibly try to get a poker game going with family members.

Once you get in a poker group, introduce Omaha-8 to the group. If you have smart friends, they'll like Omaha-8 too.

I only vaguely remember the first poker game in which I played. It was back when I was still in high school and I was the youngest participant in the game. We played for pennies and nickels, then nickels and dimes, then dimes and quarters, and finally quarters and dollars. I've been close friends with all those guys all the rest of my life. Alas, several of them are dead now, but I'm driving down to Carlsbad to visit one of them next week.

In college, I met other card players. In the U.S. Navy I met other card players. Wherever I have gone there have always been other card players.

Over twenty years ago, another professor at the college where I was teaching asked me how thanksgiving went for me. I told him fine, but I missed playing poker with the guys thanksgiving evening. (Back in high school, thanksgiving evening was kind of a dead night and we'd meet in Hatch's garage for some pool and poker). I told my colleague that I missed that camaraderie. And he knew of a group that played poker regularly.

To make a long story short, I started playing weekly with that group and we're still going strong. (We're playing tonight).

So first locate a group of others who are interested in playing some poker, or better yet, locate a group of people who are already playing poker. If you're not a jerk, they'll want to include you. (That's just the way it is).

If you're one of the best poker players in your private group, then consider trying your luck against the regulars in a local casino.

Or if you can't find a private game, then either try on-line or the local casino. If you go to the local casino, chances are at least some of the other people seated at the table will be friendly to you. If not, try other tables or casinos until you feel comfortable with the other players in the game.

You'll probably have better luck playing Texas hold 'em than Omaha-8 to start.

Buzz

Note to akaAlso: I could move this thread to the newb's thread, and maybe another moderator will do that. (And if so, fine). But at least for now, I'll leave it where it is. Anyone else who reads it may feel more like responding if it's in a separate thread.

The newb's thread, in my opinion, is more for specific questions about how Omaha-8 is played, assuming one has already found his/her way into a game.

Buzz

edit: Oops, the thread already got merged into the newb's thread. It got merged while I was formulating my reply. Oh well. I guess it belongs in the newb's thread after all.

I'm at a wonderful 4/8 half kill O/8 table. I just (correctly I'm sure) folded 267T on button when it was an 8-way limped pot. I'm one of the 2 nits who folded. That's fine - my tight play has me up a bit right now.

But how loose do you play preflop in an unraised family pot? What are the worst hands you would play in that spot?

you made a good fold. 267T is about as bad as it gets...
nothing wrong with playing tight...
you have position on several bad players, which is a great strating point. but you don't want to go too far with that, playing hopeless hands. for me, 267T is an hopeless hand, for that matter, because I can't think of many flops I like for this hand. However, you should stretch your starting hand requirements a little bit: you can play 23** hoping to flop an A plus another low card, you can play a suited ace hoping to flop a flush draw, you can play big pairs hoping to flop top set. all of these hands are marginal/speculative (assuming they don't have anything else great going for them) and should only be played under the right conditions...

Thanks Buzz, I've played online and live for several years, just in NL Holdem. I've never really played Omaha or hi/lo...I'm starting to understand it a little better.

However, I was asking about the games while I was playing NLHE at the Bike, and they said their lowest level for Omaha 8 is 3/6....but the buyin is $30? How are you supposed to play any kind of poker with 5 big blinds? I called the commerce and they run it the same way.

That's the min buyin. You can buy in for as much as you want (when I played limit, I usually bought in for 20-25 big blinds.

You can buy in for more, if you choose. I generally buy in for one rack and that works for me. Some individuals play as short stackers until they get ahead of the game, re-buying for the minimum when they lose a hand. What can be even more irritating is they're allowed to rebuy for less than $30 once before they have to make a full re-buy. It can be irritating to have one or two of these short stackers at your table. If you're irritated to the extent that you go on tilt, then I think you should take a break or quit the table.

The minimum buy in is more in some other casinos.

Buzz

buying in for many 1$ chips can look intimidating, which isn't in my best interest playing FLO8. I think it was Mike Cappelletti who first wrote that in FLO8 (as opposed to FLHE), you'd rather be "loved" than "feared".
Anyway, here's a little trick for you my friend:
have a rack with you, but be it 4 stacks of 1$ chips and a stack of 5$ chips and say: "I came from a NL game and heard they opened an Omaha game and thought it could be fun." That way, they'll think you came to gamble/give action, and at the same time you'll have more than enough chips to avoid being all-in, while not appearing threatening...
Of course, if you're a reg at this game, you'd better find a different "just came from the NL/craps table" line, so you'll have to be a little creative...
FWIW, the importance of table image at live LO8 in underrated, IMO.

Is there a equity calculator available for O8 that is similar to pokerstove for hold
'em?

I want to run my hand against a range like AAxxs and calculate my equity. If the answer to this is to use the equity calculator at propokertools, how do you input the values? I seem to get errors and can't find instructions.

yes, propokertools is very good for running equity simulations. there are other calculators you may find easier to use/more to your liking 2dimes has one as does cardplayer. (a search for poker equity calculator and those names will probably get you the link)

so inputing values into ppt. and instructions:
http://www.propokertools.com/help/simulator_docs
is the link to the help/docs. (the link is on the simulator as it appears to me in my browser)
i'd also very much suggest reading the "syntax help". generic syntax documention
as you use it more often you get more familiar with it and you can get more advanced


if we use the hand you posted for an example
you would set the simulator to game: Omaha Hi/Lo and syntax : generic
you would use AsAc7d3d for your hand
you would use AA$ss for single suited aces (as u hold 2 aces you could also do AhAd*h or AhAd*d, * is used for random card)
you would use 6dTh3h9h for board
and you would press 'unroll' if you wish to see equity preflop, flop and turn
just press 'simulate' if you just wish to see turn or remove the 9h from board press 'simulate and just see flop

hope that answers your question

Had this spot come up in a 5/10 with a full kill the other day, and I was wondering what the deal was.

It was a kill pot and I called in position with 77xx (probably awful, but lets skip that part) and a lot of people saw the flop of 754cc. It checked around to the person to my right who bet, I called, someone to my left raised, 2 people called, then the original bettor made it 3 bets to go. I know my set is no good, but am I right to call down/pray for a boat because it is 5 handed. 3 handed I think I fold because I'm stuck in the middle, but do the other people make it ok to stay in?