When I'm looking for something on the internet, I use Google. Or I guess Bing works about as well.

Just type "limit Omaha-8 theory" into the search box on Google or Bing and see what you get. I personally don't feel "a good article on limit o h/l and theory behind a solid thought process" will be sufficient to teach you the game well.

I'm now going to delete the posts responding to you that link particular non 2+2 sites. As one of the 2+2 Omaha-8 forum's moderators, I appreciate people helping out in the newb's thread. Links to off-site locations seems a gray area, but (1) we don't recommend coaches or provide links to sites of coaches.

(2) In addition, everything that is posted on one of the linked sites is not correct. In particular the site to which I'm referring provides some erroneous numerical values. Please note that everything that gets posted on the internet is not necessarily true.

I hope the two reasons listed above explain clearly to everyone why I'm deleting the posts with links.

Buzz

This is a great explanation for the top 15%. Can you explain which hands would fall into the top 25-30% of all hands. I want to open my starting hand requirements. Also are these for LO8 alone or can the same be applied in PLO8 and NLO8

Thanks

Thanks.

It's not very exact and is intended for newbs, to keep them reasonably safe while they observe at the table while learning the game and learning how their various opponents play.

Reasonable request.

However, I think the key to success at any kind of poker, including Omaha-8, is knowing how your opponents play better than they know how you play. And then you need to adapt to them better than they adapt to you. That's the basic idea.

Consequently the next step in learning the game of Omaha-8 is more about learning to read your opponent's hands than learning what the top 25% to 30% of starting hands are.

However, to sort of answer your question,
• If you played every possible hand with an ace, you'd be playing
69184/270725=25.6% of your starting hands.
• Or if you played every possible hand with an ace, that didn't also have three middle cards (sixes, sevens, eights, nines, and tens) you'd be playing
64624/270725=23.9% of your starting hands.
• You might want to play some coordinated but aceless low only hands, like 2345 or maybe 2346 or 2356, especially if double suited.
• You might also want to play some coordinated but aceless high only hands, like KQJT double suited or maybe KKQJ if double suited.
• You might also want to play double suited KK23, KK24, and KK34 hands.

These last several groups are speculative hands you have to be willing to fold if the flop doesn't hit your hand very squarely.

But before you start adding hands to you arsenal, make sure you consistently show a profit sticking to the original list.

It might seem that the best Omaha-8 two-card combinations would be the same as the best Texas hold 'em two-card combinations. But the split pot nature of the game changes that. I wrote a lot more about that, but deleted it, preferring to keep this answer as succinct as possible.

Here's the complete list of all 16432 possible starting hands, objectively arranged from best to worst, using a clever simulation scheme.
http://www.propokertools.com/simulator/o8ordering.txt

Buzz

Buzz...Thanks for the reply. I think one of the hardest things for me is reading people and what they might be playing. Based on VPIP/PFR/AF I am starting to get a pretty good idea of what some people do not play. However how do you figure out what a person (say even 3 at one table) playing 75-90% of the hands they are dealt is holding? Does it even matter at that point? Maybe it is because I am so weak in figuring what they have in the first place that concerns me the most.

I do appreciate the advice on what would constitute getting to 25-30% range.

What are your thoughts on Hands like A4KK or A5QQ with a suited Ace. I see you mentioned hands like 23KK but left these out. Is that because they are more obvious to play or avoid?

I also appreciate you reminding me that it might not be a great idea to add to my range when I am not consistently showing a profit when playing just the original group.


Thanks

You're welcome.

I think card reading is the skill that separates good card players from poor card players. I think you can learn it, but I think to learn you have to want to learn and be interested in learning. And then the learning more or less takes care of itself. (Some good guidance usually helps and cuts down on learning time by providing direction).

You can't on the first betting round. There are too many possibilities.

And if they're that loose on the second betting round, you still can't because there are still too many possibilities. But usually your opponents won't be that loose on the second betting round. Usually you can start logically narrowing down the possibilities. I can't tell you exactly how to do that because I think it's highly specific flop dependent and also highly specific opponent dependent.

If it's logically possible to put your opponent on cards, then sure it matters. If your opponent is playing helter skelter, then you just have to play your own cards. Or if you're incapable of using the logic necessary to put your opponent on cards, then I guess you have to simply play your own cards.

There are a lot of poker players who are basically unable to do anything but play their own cards. They are "fish." If playing your own cards is all you can do, then you're one of them.

If that is the case, it should be a matter of concern to you. If playing your own cards is all you can do, then you're a fish too.

But I think you can get past that point if you're reasonably intelligent, if you want to learn, and if you're willing to spend the time and effort to learn.

Start by carefully (line by line, perhaps picking the cards involved out of a deck as you go, so as to visualize better what may be involved) reading hand histories in this forum and trying to put the Villains on logical cards for their actions. And at the same time get some playing experience. From my perspective, there's honestly quite a lot to card reading.

Start by trying to guess a two card combination an opponent might be holding to play as he does. You get various clues based on the actions of your opponent. Don't just guess your opponent always has the nuts (unless your know he wouldn't be playing without the nuts). Often all you can do is put your opponent on a probable two cards or maybe not even that, maybe just a range, and because of the deceptive nature of the game, you won't always get it right.

But if you keep at it and are intelligent enough, I think you'll get better and better at it.

I could go into it in greater detail. However, in my opinion you should be focusing on improving your card reading skills.

And going into opening hand selection in greater detail is not really something for the newb's thread (in my humble opinion). What consideration should be given to various non-nut hands, for example non-nut flushes and non-nut flush draws, is somewhat controversial.

Buzz

Hi there,

Recentlly i came across with Omaha poker , and what can i say...i liked it .

Still, i feel that i need some massive practice before tring my luck with real cash...

Can someone recommend on a good omaha practice room?


Thanks,
David T.

General forum consensus is that it's much better to play nano-stakes, than play money. Play money games don't come even close to mimicking any type of real money environment you'll find. If you're just trying to figure out what beats what, any site will do IMO.

GL, & welcome to the forum

yeah start w/ real money. consider it a hobby, and in our hobbies we invest $. you can deposit as little as $10 on pokerstars and full tilt.

I would start learning at 0.5/1.0 - even as a beginner u might be better than the regs in that game.

If you have never played this game you will get eaten alive. Play much, much lower until you get your feet under you.

And wouldn't you want like a 300 dollar bankroll for .5/1? I'm playing .25/.50 and the games seem soft but I'm for sure not second or third best player at the table. I've read a bit about the game but definitely need more experience. I know .5/1 in Limit required a significant leap in skill to get through compared to the Kennedy coin stakes.

Some might say that between 200 and 250 is fine for this level. If you were to drop below 200 though proper BRM would have you dropping back down.

Oh I thought we are talking PL not Limit..nvm

And when I said playing .50/1 in limit I meant limit Holdem. I play .50 BB LO8

Try googling "Omaha-8 practice rooms."

I suggest you try them all before deciding for yourself which is best for you.

Welcome to the forum.

Buzz

For table selection do we want to find loose tables for the most part or is this highly dependent on our own playing styles. I find that when I play at tables with plrs/flop above 60% I end up not doing as good as I would have thought. Then I look at higher stakes and see that the average runs in the 30s for this, so is there any point to play at tables between 60and 70% plrs/flop when it simply wont exist when I move up?

Yes.

It probably has to do with your style, but in general you'll have a better time at looser tables. As you move up in stakes the skill levels of the opponents you face will overlap. Every player at a higher stakes table is not necessarily more skilled than every player at a lower stakes table. There are various reasons for this.

I think it depends on the players involved. Players who see too many flops may more than make up for this error by superb post-flop play. VPIP is probably not the best determinant of Omaha-8 playing skill, even though it's probably one of the factors involved.

What is stopping you from moving up right now?

If you don't currently have sufficient money (or bankroll) to play higher stakes, then enjoy the stakes at which you currently play.

Part of learning the game is learning to adjust to the styles of your various opponents. Learn how to do that and then as the skill levels of your opponents change, from lower stakes to higher stakes, adjust.

Buzz

Thanks Buzz. So in short if you had a choice to sit at a table that is showing plars/flop at 70% or one that was showing plrs/flop at 39% you are most likely gonna sit at the 70% table?

I am actually not rolled to move up at this time. I was on my way there a few weeks ago but had a downswing so i am being a bit more cautious until i recover. I am a BR nit.

This is a pretty silly question but I've been playing play money games, mostly limit for ring and then PL for SnGs since thats all that seems to ever fill up, and NL and PL for freerolls.

I think I have a decent feel for the game and I'm reading the O8 section in SS2 and I want to put some money on Stars to play .02/.04 limit. Now I know the "recommended" bankroll for limit in general is 300xBB which at that level is $12. Is that actually enough? I'm sitting here looking at my bankroll thinking "uhhhhh...."

So should this be enough to just mess around with and play tight and smart?

Seems to me it is, but I don't know.

On one hand, if you're worried about it, don't do it.
On the other hand, it's only $12; try it and see how it works for you.

Buzz

Yeah I'm not really worried about the money, it just seems like such a small amount haha.

In that case, buying in for $12 and nursing it like a real bankroll seems like a way to check how the whole bankroll concept works for you playing Omaha-8. This more or less assumes you can beat the low level game and eke out a steady profit.

Seems to me the suppositions in maintaining a bankroll are:
(1) You're enough better than your opposition to earn a steady living playing poker.
(2) You want to have enough money in your bankroll to sustain you in case you have an extended period of bad luck.

If you were playing, for example, at the $20/$40 fixed limit level, and if you were averaging earning one big bet per hour, you'd be making $40 per hour on a more or less steady basis. And if you played fifty hours per week, you'd be making about a hundred grand per year playing poker. I think there are people who do that, but I don't think there are many of them.

I think it's a bit like planning to make a living playing professional football. How many pro football players went to your high school with you? None? One? The point is lots of individuals would like to play pro ball, but not many have enough skill and luck to accomplish that goal. And then for the most part, they don't last long. (Ten years is a long time to play pro ball).

I know individuals who play Omaha-8 poker better than I do who are living out of their cars, shooting for angles and begging for stakes. Some of them simply hit a bad streak, went broke, and don't have enough of a bankroll behind them to withstand the variance. They get "tapped out." Then once broke, it's hard for them to get enough money to sustain a decent life style and also to play at the level they need to play in order to sustain that life style. (When you're broke, you're broke).

And if they do get enough money to buy into a game at a high enough level to pay for their monthly needs, they don't have enough in reserve to avoid getting "tapped out" again.

Since none of that probably applies to you, or any newb, bankroll management does not seem to me a topic for the newb's thread.

Still, I suppose it can't hurt a newb to learn the principles of bankroll management and practice them before possibly embarking on a career as a professional poker player.

I'm not a professional poker player. I have no aspirations to become one. I play and study the game as recreation. I'm never going to bet the family farm. If I have an extended losing streak starting tonight, the next time Natalia Osipova is in town, I'll only go to see her dance once or twice instead of every night she dances, or maybe I'll buy less expensive seats.

I neither have nor need a bankroll. Good luck with yours.

Buzz

Ive played poker in the past, I played micro and low limit holdem for a few years and never really did poorly, break even or maybe made a little and I was always putting in a few hundred via netteller so buying in for 12 just makes me feel weird, but I learned in the past that playing with a larger amount of money made me care more about it, not necessarily in the game or even after getting stacked for a buyin or two, but just days later looking at my roll would irritate me. The only limit I've played was when I made a decent sized killing on pokerroom playing Stud but played out of my limits and lost it all, which didnt piss me off or make me feel bad but taught me a good lesson.

This shall be an interesting experiment, playing a game I never played for money before, and a type of game I am basically unfamiliar with until a week or two ago. I want to see if my years off have helped my poker mind mature or if I'm just someone who cannot learn past a certain point or becomes too stubborn at a certain point to take my game to the next level.

I have one more question...since its been so long since I played actual poker for money online, is there somewhere on here (i dont really know what to search for) that has maybe a chart of the odds on draws, for instance my chances to a flush, straight, house etc vs what the pot odds are so that I dont have to sit there counting outs and then trying to figure out my pot odds while the Stars timer beeps annoyingly at me?

By the way Buzz, you are a very very helpful poster. I realize you are an admin and all that so its sort of your job but I've been on other poker sites (and, to an extent even this site in the past) where the help was not nearly as good. Ive read through a lot of this O8 forum and you seem to always be there no matter who the user is, with a well thought out easy to understand post, and a few helpful extras to boot.

I'm not sure how to answer. Odds for various draws are posted in various places. But all the charts I've seen posted on the internet are not correct in all respects. In other words, some of the stuff posted is incorrect. I think there are a couple of recent 2+2 on-line magazine articles about Omaha-8 that have various odds or probabilities posted.

Thank you. I'm not alone on this forum in that respect. There are a number of excellent posters to this site who are (I believe) better poker players than I am - both other greens (Niss and Truthiness) for starters. We're all primarily players and posters and secondarily moderators.

No. I'm not an administrator. 2+2 moderators are all unpaid volunteers. The other two greens (Niss and Truthiness) who moderate this site are both excellent posters and successful Omaha-8 players. We all contribute in different ways, whatever feels right. I just happen to contribute more at this time to the newb's thread than the others.

I hate to single out authors because several excellent authors also contribute to this site. But I should note that Ray Zee sometimes chimes in with an opinion. Ray wrote the 2+2 book that is still the classic Omaha-8 text, in my opinion.

Thanks. I learn from reading ideas of others and also crystallize my own thoughts by writing them. Omaha-8 is my hobby.

Buzz

Hi,

If the board is K 3 5 2 2

and you have A 2 9 4.. Do you still have the nut lo ?