Welcome to the forum. The most basic tip: read the stickies. Right at the top of the first page. Especially the one for "newbs".

Did I play this hand "standard"? I'm new to O8 but in all the training videos and from what I've learned this seems to be the classic freeroll situation: nut low + NFD. However when I checked the equities after the hand I found out that I was an equity dog the whole time. Is this just a crazy rare situation where I'm behind in this spot - did I play the hand standard and just get coolered? Or did I make some mistake along the way?

Grabbed by Holdem Manager
Limit Hi-Lo Omaha $0.50(BB) Poker Stars
SB ($28.50)
BB ($16.95)
UTG ($18.50)
UTG+1 ($17.50)
UTG+2 ($31.25)
MP1 ($18.50)
MP2 ($4.50)
CO ($28.10)
Hero ($20)

Dealt to Hero 3 A 2 6

fold, UTG+1 calls $0.50, fold, fold, fold, CO calls $0.50, Hero calls $0.50, SB calls $0.25, BB raises to $1, UTG+1 calls $0.50, CO calls $0.50, Hero calls $0.50, SB calls $0.50

FLOP ($5) 3 4 8

SB checks, BB bets $0.50, UTG+1 calls $0.50, CO folds, Hero raises to $1, SB folds, BB raises to $1.50, UTG+1 folds, Hero raises to $2, BB calls $0.50

TURN ($9.50) 3 4 8 J

BB bets $1, Hero raises to $2, BB raises to $3, Hero raises to $4, BB calls $1

RIVER ($17.50) 3 4 8 J 9

BB checks, Hero checks

Hero shows 3 A 2 6
(Pre 53%, Flop 45.2%, Turn 37.5%)

BB shows 5 A 4 2
(Pre 47%, Flop 54.8%, Turn 62.5%)

Hero wins $4.25
BB wins $12.75

Not quite. As you yourself mention at the bottom of your post, you're the pre-flop favorite. But it is true that, as the cards lie, after the flop you're not the favorite any more.

I wouldn't call the situation crazy or rare. You're not much ahead before the flop, and then you both flop the same low but Villain has better counterfeit protection.

A common winner for high in these heads-up battles is two pairs - but in this particular case, as the cards lie after the flop, if Hero makes two pairs, Villain makes a straight. Thus Hero cannot win with two pairs after this particular flop. In addition, Hero doesn't win if he doesn't improve.

• If neither Hero nor Villain improves from the flop (~16.4%), Villain's pair wins.
• If Hero improves to two pairs, Villain improves to a straight (~32.0%). This is disastrous for Hero and there's no way Hero can see it, although Hero can see the board and realize Villain might have made a straight. But Hero (unless he's cheating) cannot see what cards Villain holds.
• Otherwise if Hero improves he mostly (~95%) wins.

But as the cards lie after the flop, and you can call it a fluke or almost a fluke, when Hero improves to two pairs Hero always loses. That's what (uncharacteristically) makes Villain the favorite to win high.

And, as the cards lie, Villain also ends up with better counterfeit protection for low after the flop.

Interesting hand.

If you did, I don't see it.

I don't find fault with your play here.

It's at least noteworthy that, depending on the anticipated tenacity of Villain and my read of Villain, I might sometimes bet this river, taking the risk of getting quartered in an attempt to convert a nut low hand into a scooper.

However, I don't fault you for not taking this line. Indeed, as the cards lie, you save one or two big bets on the river by not attempting this tactic.

Interesting hand.

Buzz

How should I play these hands differently?

Don't raise pf? Raise pf? How should I play flop and turn (I'd assume I was up against 23 on turn..)..

Hand #1
Poker Stars $0.02/$0.04 Limit Omaha Hi/Lo - 10 players
The Official 2+2 Hand Converter By DeucesCracked Poker Videos

Pre Flop: (1.5 SB) Hero is BTN with A A 6 7
1 fold, UTG+1 calls, 4 folds, CO calls, Hero raises, 1 fold, BB calls, UTG+1 calls, CO calls

Flop: (8.5 SB) 4 5 9 (4 players)
BB checks, UTG+1 checks, CO checks, Hero checks

Turn: (4.25 BB) A (4 players)
BB bets, UTG+1 calls, CO raises, Hero folds, BB calls, UTG+1 calls

River: (10.25 BB) 3 (3 players)
BB bets, UTG+1 folds, CO raises, BB 3-bets, CO caps!, BB calls



Not sure what i should do with double suited kings in SB multiway in a raised pf pot (with 2 wheel cards..)

Hand #2
Poker Stars $0.02/$0.04 Limit Omaha Hi/Lo - 10 players
The Official 2+2 Hand Converter By DeucesCracked Poker Videos

MP1 posts a big blind (1 SB)

Pre Flop: (2.5 SB) Hero is SB with K 5 K 2
1 fold, UTG+1 raises, 1 fold, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, 3 folds, Hero calls, BB calls

Flop: (10 SB) 9 8 9 (5 players)
Hero checks, BB checks, UTG+1 checks, MP1 checks, MP2 checks

Turn: (5 BB) J (5 players)
Hero checks, BB bets, UTG+1 folds, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, Hero folds




Not sure what I should do here.. fold river? raise river for bluff? call down ok?

Hand #3
Poker Stars $0.02/$0.04 Limit Omaha Hi/Lo - 7 players
The Official 2+2 Hand Converter By DeucesCracked Poker Videos

Pre Flop: (1.5 SB) Hero is MP with A 2 A K
UTG raises, 1 fold, Hero 3-bets, 1 fold, BTN caps!, 2 folds, UTG calls, Hero calls

Flop: (13.5 SB) J 4 4 (3 players)
UTG bets, Hero calls, BTN calls

Turn: (8.25 BB) K (3 players)
UTG bets, Hero calls, BTN calls

River: (11.25 BB) Q (3 players)
UTG bets, Hero calls, BTN calls






This hand.. loose pf? Have A45Jds and on the button..

Hand #4
Poker Stars $0.02/$0.04 Limit Omaha Hi/Lo - 6 players
The Official 2+2 Hand Converter By DeucesCracked Poker Videos

Pre Flop: (1.5 SB) Hero is BTN with J 5 A 4
UTG calls, MP calls, 1 fold, Hero calls, SB calls, BB raises, UTG calls, MP calls, Hero calls, SB calls

Flop: (10 SB) T 6 Q (5 players)
SB bets, BB calls, UTG calls, MP calls, Hero calls

Turn: (7.5 BB) 9 (5 players)
SB bets, BB calls, UTG calls, MP folds, Hero calls

River: (11.5 BB) 8 (4 players)
SB checks, BB checks, UTG checks, Hero checks

I think you have the wrong approach. The game is Omaha-8, but you still have to play poker well to be long term successful. Playing poker well involves out-playing your opponents. Sometimes with almost any particular hand, that involves raising, other times that involves checking, calling, or folding.

For example, holding A A 6 7 on the button in a ten player game, after five folds and two limps, sometimes you should raise. Other times you should limp or fold. Which choice is best depends more on how your opponents will react to your raise, immediately, later in this hand, and in future hands.

But just consider this current hand.
A A 6 7 probably plays better against three players than five. So if your raise will knock out both blinds, then go ahead and raise. But if everybody is going to call your raise, raising may not be your best option.

(After the flop, everything changes. Assuming your opponents know the game, those without good flop fits will likely fold to a bet. Most flops will not be favorable for A A 6 7. For example only one flop in eight will have an ace and most flops won't have even two spades, let alone three. There are lots of possibilities, but with five opponents, unless the raise knocks out the blinds, at least one opponent will probably have a better flop fit than Hero. And then Hero will have more invested and find it more difficult to get away from the hand.)

Here's a simulation you can follow. Let's give one of the limpers A*** and the other limper a top 20% hand. And lets give both blinds random cards (****).

ProPokerTools Omaha Hi/Lo Simulation

600,000 trials (Randomized)

Hand	Pot equity	Scoops	Wins Hi	Ties Hi	Wins Lo	Ties Lo
Ad6dAs7h	21.68%	77,247	141,264	9,271	32,536	25,052
A***	21.93%	64,429	97,020	11,247	84,142	46,849
20%	24.36%	71,928	107,178	9,557	103,390	42,525
****	16.03%	60,478	114,914	10,114	10,718	2,934
****	16.00%	59,818	115,000	10,067	10,875	3,041

Click on the link, and then click "edit" to delete both blinds. See how Hero's chances improve with just two opponents, one with A*** and the other with a top 20% hand.

But note that if neither blind folds, you have more money invested and you haven't improved.

Get it?

If you do, I believe I've given you some very good advice.

As to the hand histories you've posted, you've overwhelmed me. I don't like to respond to posts that have more than one hand history. It's sometimes interesting for me to respond to one hand, but responding to four is a chore. And the way I read and answer, it's easy for me to get the hand histories confused with each other.

Another thing is hand histories don't really belong in the newb's thread. They belong in separate threads, one thread per hand history, as individual threads in the forum, where you'll get a better response. Posters will have different ideas about how to best play each hand and sometimes we at least learn how others think in discussions of hand histories.

Lastly, I've never played 4¢/8¢ Omaha-8. The hands can be the same, but the way they're played by your opponents, the thinking of your opponents, is probably different than at $4/$8 Omaha-8 or $400/$800 Omaha-8.

That written, I'll go ahead and give you some feedback. If you or anyone disagrees with me, which is highly likely, I'll your post (and my response) out of the newb's forum and into a thread of it's own.

Hand #1
Hero is BTN with A A 6 7[/quote]That's a nice starting hand. Hero probably has a better chance with it if he can successfully knock out the blinds, but if that won't work, I think the best way to play the hand is as a draw. In other words, if a raise won't knock out the blinds, just limp hoping to see the flop cheaply - and then generally fold if you don't get a nice fit with the flop.

I'd probably bet the flop and also bet the turn.

Not as good a starting hand as hand #1. I'd want to see the flop with it.

OK.

Not a good flop for Hero's hand.

OK.

Turn: (5 BB) J (5 players)
Hero checks, BB bets, UTG+1 folds, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, Hero folds[/quote]OK.

Nice starting hand.

Shrug. Probably not the way I'd play it. Kind of awkward when UTG raises. You need to know your opponents to have a better idea of what cards they're playing.

Not a good flop for Hero.

I'd fold. If you only had one hand history in this thread I might tell you why, but I'm not going to do that when you've posted four hand histories.

This hand is in my playable range. And we're on the button, which is good.

OK.

OK. Not really a good flop for Hero, but you're getting favorable odds to see another card.

OK. You picked up the spade draw.

OK. Lots of straights possible but Hero doesn't have one. Someone could be playing a non-nut straight, or slow playing the nuts. Does someone fold a good hand but not the nuts to a positional bet at this point? I don't know. I doubt it.

Buzz

Are there any good plo8 HU CG training videos?

"CG" means "computer graphics," I presume.

There are some Omaha-8 computer training videos, but I'm not sure about the details.

I don't know if they're heads-up and I don't know if they're pot limit.

Buzz

CG = cash games.

And no, there aren't any as afaik.

Guess I will have to figure out the computer graphics by myself then.

Wanna say I have been re-reading Ray Zee's book. It's pretty cool how that book inspires me every time I read it. I can't count how many times it's made me think about things in a new way.

IMO it is a must-buy for any H/L split player.

What's it called? Is in the 2+2 store (I would look but, y'know )

where i can find plo8 articles ? specially something about mtts
ty

nm. found it and going to get it

heya. just thought i would pop my head in here, ive been playing FLO8 the past couple days at stars, and i think ive found my game. ill be around this forum a lot more in time to come to try and improve my understanding of the game. im playing mainly 6 max $2/$4 at the moment, but mixing in some $1/$2 as well, and played a short session today of 3/6 and 5/10 to take a shot and see how those games played. (and to get an idea of VPP/hand rates).

im sure this has been asked before in this thread, but got any general tips for a guy whos just starting out, and really enjoying the game? I will read through the whole of this thread soon, however its half 2 in the morning, im working tomorrow and im tired. :P happy holidays people!

hey was just wondering how beatable the online 2/4 type LO8 games are. there don't seem to be many running on stars. are the ones that are filled with good solid regs with winrates that don't get above 1BB/100?

Oh, it's like going fishing in a row boat and having game fish jump into your boat.

Just kidding. I couldn't resist it.

It should be obvious to you that because of the rake, more money is lost by poker players in casinos than is won.

Because the casinos get their share first, more money must necessarily be lost than won by poker players, including Omaha-8 poker players.

Thus the big winners in poker casinos, whether on-line or brick and mortar, are the casino owners, assuming the casinos are capably managed.

Yet there are some winning Omaha-8 players. The amount anyone is able to win depends on a combination of one's Omaha-8 poker skill and luck.

However, for every big winner there either is one big loser or, more likely, more than one medium or small losers. And the losers either lose all their money or get discouraged and quit the game. Thus poker pros are dependent on a continuing fresh supply of losers. But when times are tough, as now, that supply tends to dry up.

While I do derive great satisfaction and enjoyment from playing and studying Omaha-8, let me advise you that if you're clever enough to make a sustained livable wage playing Omaha-8 poker, then you probably are capable of earning a better living doing something else.

Buzz

like what?

im currently looking at FLO8 as more than a hobby for the future, nothing im going to jump into hastily, i need to convince my self with several hundered thousands of hands that i can beat the game, i want to play with a full roll, and backup cash in case of downturns, nd instead of leaving my job if it comes to it, ill be dropping my hours originally, to test the waters so to speak.

I was just wondering what you meant else that you could do which would be better than grinding a living at FLO8?

First of all, we don't know if you're sharp enough to make a good living playing poker. By good living, I mean supporting a family and all the stuff that goes with that like buying a house in a nice neighborhood and furnishing it, paying for heat and utilities and transportation, paying doctor's and dentist's bills, paying for food and clothes for your wife and kids, music lessons, family vacations, making sure your kids get an education, maybe buying a couple of horses for your kids, etc. There's quite a bit involved.

I don't think I ever could have done all that playing poker, and I'm a fairly decent poker player, or was when I was younger anyhow.

So I'm just saying... If you're sharp enough to make a good living playing poker, then I believe you're capable of making a better living doing something else. But I don't know specifically what that would be for you.

That makes good sense to me. Omaha-8 is my own "hobby."

Good idea.

I don't know what "nd" means. (I don't think it matters if I do or not).

At any rate, good luck. If you have enough skill, I think you can show a tidy profit playing Omaha-8 poker, but doing so is not what I'd call easy pickings.

That's an honest appraisal.

Buzz

What sort of big bets/100 can be acheived at FLO8 cash? i avent played anywhere near enough hands of it yet to determin wether im a winning player yet, let alone what my winrate should be... but so far im making a lot more per hour than in my job. and theres not really many choices for me in terms of jobs. theres one company i'm trying to get into, its pretty much my dream job other than poker... but they employ ~ 400 people and get ~ 1,000 job applications daily... so im not holding my breath.

without getting that, im left with my min wage job dealing poker. im only 21 atm, no family to support at the moment etc etc... however if my hourly at FLO8 beats my job (and at the moment it is by a heck of a long way) then i would assume that would be my best direction?

as a side question... what are the best FLO8 online tournies? theres the 2 $1,000 guarantees on stars i try to play (but the timing isnt brilliant) but apart from those and the weekly $200 (which i dont feel comfortable playing with my current roll yet) i dont really knwow hat else is out there. are there nice tournies places like cake or tilt?

Perhaps it is. However, I seriously doubt it. Although I don't know you, it seems to me you may be taking a very short sighted view. I advise you to try to get on a path where you build a foundation for a good future. How exactly to best do that depends on your individual talents.

You have to be very, very sharp to make a good living playing any kind of poker, including Omaha-8 poker. It's a tough life and difficult to sustain.

And if you're sharp enough to do it, I truly believe you're capable of making a better living for yourself doing something else.

If you play poker more or less as a hobby and find you're big time successful, that's a different story.

Most of my own twenty first year was spent aboard a ship I truly hated. Basically I did whatever someone in authority told me to do, because if I didn't, however bad things seemed, they got worse. The ship was involved in various bomb tests around Eniwetok Atoll and Kwajalein Island.

At that time I had no idea my life would take the career path it took. My twenty first year was all about surviving my tour of duty in the U.S. Navy.

Years later my wife and I would land on Kwajalein on our way to scuba diving at Truk and Palau, both great dive sites. I doubt the place had changed much but my view of it certainly changed. Life is tough when you're twenty one and have little status.

A good education was the key to success for me. Once I got a good college degree doors opened that were closed to me when I was twenty one.

No guarantees things would work that way for you or anyone else. But assuming you're not born into wealth, I think you have a better chance to do well in life if you get a good education than if you waste your early twenties playing poker. Just my opinion.

Please ask your other questions in other threads, perhaps even other forums. This thread is supposed to be for newb type questions about how to play Omaha-8. Thanks.

Buzz

ok, thanks. I do still feel like a bit of a noob though... anyway, i have a few questions i belevie probably belong in here...

for starters, what sort of winrate is attainable longterm? 1.5 BB/100? (where BB is big bet?)?

what would be a longterm attainable ROI in FLO8 MTT's?

I completely understand that the game should be palyed based on who your playing against, what reads you have, and your own personal playing style... but if you were to tell a complete beginner which hands to play from each position in 6-max FLO8... which would they be? (for example, open the button with anything scoring 15+ in hutchinson points... thats pretty much roughly how ive been playing that particular scenario so far). I know some hands in ranges you give based ont he points wont be playavble and some playable hadns will be missed out, but it should be fairly close i reckon?




thanks.

In theory you could play every hand and win every pot.

What you actually win (or lose) is due to some combination of skill and luck.

Position is not nearly as important in fixed-limit Omaha-8 as it is in pot-limit Omaha-8. As a beginner, I recommend very tight play. The idea is to watch and learn while playing, hopefully turn a small profit, and not lose your shirt while learning.

The following is copied from post #51 in this thread:

A beginner's list of starting hands:

Probably only about fifteen or sixteen per cent of Omaha-8 starting hands are profitable against competent opponents, if you let the cards more or less play themselves.

If you don’t know which starting hands belong to this elite 15% of starting hands group, you’re not alone. Start by choosing any hands belonging to the following three groups:

• all hands with an ace and a deuce (but not trips),
• all hands with an ace and a trey where the ace is suited to one or more cards in the hand (but not trips),
• all hands with a pair of aces (but not trips) where at least one of the aces is suited to one or two cards in the hand.

These three groups of hands make up about 13.7% of the hands dealt, approximately one out of seven hands dealt, including some hands that are borderline and probably not profitable, but also including most of the safely profitable hands.

That's a beginner's list of playable starting hands. In a real money game, you probably won't get in too much trouble playing those hands, you'll practice discipline and learn how to play tightly, and if you keep your eyes open and stay focused on the game, you'll survive while learning and enjoying the game.

There's another more detailed beginner's list referenced in the FAQ that you might try if you're interested (Hutchison).

Buzz

wouldnt that starting hand list be a bit too tight for 6 max? i was under the impression that that was geared more towards fullring play.

Also, the hutchinson system also assumes fullring. it says to play 20+ points and raise 30+ points. what would you change those numbers to in view of a 6 max game?

And also, what is the lowest hutchinson number that you should defend the big blind with facing a single raise?


Many thanks

as a guesstimate, i have been palying roughly consider playing 16+ hutchinson points, and consider raising 20+ points. roughly. i have also been considering my opponents and adjusting this from time to time, and also defending BB for a single raise and a flat call behind with less. am i far off the mark or is this roughly how you would suggest?

It was geared more towards full ring play. The list is for raw beginners, a true newb. As a raw beginner, I'd advise you to play full ring while you learn the rudiments of the game. If you already know the rudiments of the game, then you're not really a newb.

I don't play according to the Hutchison system. In particular, my philosophy of raising, for myself, is to raise or not depending more on what I think the effect will be on my opponents rather than on the basis of the cards in my starting hand or number of points using the Hutchison system.

By "effect on my opponents," I mean (1) immediate, (2) for the rest of the current hand, and (3) for future hands. I realize that's very vague to you. Hopefully it's also vague to my actual opponents so that the hand readers will have difficulty putting me on cards. (For what it's worth, I'm a hand reader myself, or at least when I am able to do so - at least that is my intention).

I think the Hutchison system can be useful to some newbs in evaluating their starting hands, in knowing how relatively good the cards they have been dealt are. And if a player who is not a newb is playing very loosely and playing a losing game, I think adhering to the Hutchison system can help reduce the number of losing hands he plays. But it's not a be all and end all. It's not the holy grail.

I can't speak for Mr. Hutchison.

For me, defense of my big blind has different considerations from voluntarily playing a hand. Whether I'll defend or not, rather like pre-flop raises, depends more on what I think the effect of defending will have on my opponents than the actual cards I hold or the number of Hutchison points my hand is worth.

I think you're playing too loosely if you're truly a newb. If you're not truly a newb, your questions don't belong in the newb's thread.

Buzz