This is intended to be a thread where a newb (newcomer to Omaha-8) can come in and ask any question he/she wants, no matter how fundamental, about how to play the game of Omaha-8 without having to be intimidated about starting a new thread.

We invite those who might want to explore our game but lack the basic understanding to do so to ask any question, even if it seems "dumb" or "foolish" or "stupid" - without fear of ridicule.

We also invite any regular forum member to answer any question asked in this thread. But if you do so, please do so in a polite, friendly, warm, welcoming fashion.

If you want coaching or tutoring or if you want to advertise coaching or tutoring... or if you want to recommend a particular coach or tutor, please do so in the marketplace forum.

If you're interested in staking or getting staked, please do so in the marketplace forum.

Thanks.

This thread was Niss's idea - and a good one, in my opinion.

Buzz

EDIT: So as to cut down on the number of stickys, I'm going to place links to popular wells below:

In alphabetical order

aaron-bartley
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/44...artley-964766/

AJB (also known as AJB4 or AJB44)
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/44...l-ajb4-463470/

amok
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/44...-well-1273887/

Andrew Barber
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/44...-well-1581692/

Assani Fisher
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/44...assani-692125/

bjorn-verbakel (a.k.a. sjappie, bokkie)
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/44...okkie-1586479/

Borys313
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/44...rys313-270485/

Campfirewest (Dan Deppen)
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/44...rewest-585543/

chknpotpie
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/44...s-well-762967/

Dave Breal
http://archives1.twoplustwo.com/show...0&fpart=1&vc=1

Dorsal Fin
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/44...s-well-750091/

Eddie29/Jobs4Sale
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/44...s-well-374140/

GameOver73
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/44...over73-333414/

Gergery
http://archives1.twoplustwo.com/show...0&fpart=1&vc=1

GoChiefs19
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/44...iefs19-893266/

GrimIsCool (Kevin Andrews)
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/44...-well-1611112/

Hero Value/Benny Glaser
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/44...-well-1620930/

Jorge
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/44...orge10-401567/

JWorth
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/44...jworth-787457/

Kuso
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/44...l-kuso-377658/

Linden Arden
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/44...-arden-525402/

MDDGFC
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/44...s-well-732869/

Mega (Megadisgruntled)
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/44...l-well-533581/

Niss
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/44...l-niss-403656/

Omahaha
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/44...-well-1467121/

Predator
http://archives1.twoplustwo.com/show...0&fpart=1&vc=1

PWMN
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/44...s-well-800949/

runvnme
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/44...unvnme-475652/

Shabamabam
http://archives1.twoplustwo.com/show...0&fpart=1&vc=1

Shaq (Shaqalicious)
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/44...icious-708631/

Truthiness24
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/44.../#post12578865

TxRedMan
http://archives1.twoplustwo.com/show...0&fpart=1&vc=1

Whatis7x6
http://archives1.twoplustwo.com/show...0&fpart=1&vc=1

Wintermute, alias Januarymute, alias "Mute"
http://archives1.twoplustwo.com/show...fpart=all&vc=1
.

How do you post a pic on the forum?

Here's a link to a post that explains how to do it:
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/55...ctures-285800/

Hope that does it for you.

Buzz

what are the vpp rates for limit o8 games, both 6max and fr?

or where can i find this information?

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/44...mit-o8-665734/

In post 18 DeNutza gives some numbers, and there are others here and there. Post 17 has some from me also for FL at lower stakes.

I don't think there's anything more comprehensive than what's jumbled about in places in this thread.

hmm thanks

looks like fr got ****ed on and sh went up. in fact i may be off but it looks like lo8 has < vpps than lhe.... which just seems wrong (like not inaccurate, but unfair)

I don't know if this is true or not, but would split pots and more money going in have anything to do with this? I don't even know if this reply even makes sense...

I read Bulletproof Monk's reply "it looks like lo8 has < vpps than lhe...." to mean "it looks like fixed-limit Omaha-8 has fewer players voluntarily paying to see the flop than fixed-limit Texas hold 'em."

I don't know if that's true or not. Seems to me as though there's probably overlap. I don't know which is played more loosely, fixed-limit Omaha-8 or fixed-limit Texas hold 'em."

Moreover, I don't know if we're interpreting Bulletproof Monk's reply the same.

For what it's worth, I probably play more tightly when playing fixed-limit Texas hold 'em than when playing fixed-limit Omaha-8, but that's because I'm much more familiar with Omaha-8 than Texas hold 'em.

Buzz

I'm sure this is covered all over the place but the newbie thread is for newbies so I'll just go ahead and ask. How does one receive rakeback? I feel like a sucker not getting it, and don't even know if it's available on stars.

There is no such thing as direct rakeback on Stars. The FPPs and other VIP club benefits are the same thing under another name.

This is a good start: http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...76&postcount=3

Thanks, ichbin. You know more about it than I do.

If I wanted to know more about rakeback, I'd to to the internet forum and specifically to this thread:
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/51...counts-181213/

Buzz

Thnx for these links. I have been a troll here very long. Thought I register and say thnx for all the info. Very informative wells.

Kind regards
Mitch

You're welcome and thank you for the kind words.

I agree the wells are excellent sources of information.

Buzz

Hi I'm new to O8 and hi lo games in general. i thought i won the lo here with A2578 because i hold the lowest card in the lo. vilain has 23478 but villain won the lo. what are the rules for showdown arnkings for lo's?

Board: 8s 7h Jd Qd 2d

my hand: Ac 5c 5h Th

villain hand:2h 3c 4s 7c

You have 87521
Villain has 87432

87521 > 87432, thus villain has lower hand.

Just read backwards and replace ace with 1.

so would a 2345r hand be better than A4KQr?

not on a 238 flop or 258

Tarvaris has explained this perfectly.

Replace the ace with 1 and read backwards.
"87521 > 87432, thus villain has lower hand."

No. A4KQr is a better starting hand than 2345r.

You can get an idea of how good starting hands are by going to ProPokerTools, typing the hand into the box provided, and then clicking on "rank."
http://www.propokertools.com/simulations?g=o8

If you do that with these two hands, specifying that they be rainbow hands by making each card in the hand a different suit, here are the results:

Omaha Hi/Lo	Hand Ranking	What's this?
Hand	Average Rank	Best Rank
2s3h4d5c	38.0	38.0

Omaha Hi/Lo	Hand Ranking	What's this?
Hand	Average Rank	Best Rank
As4hKdQc	16.0	16.0

A rank of 1 would be best and 100 would be worst.

To perhaps put the "38" rank of 2345r better in perspective, on average, in a six handed game, you might expect two of the six dealt hands to be better than 2345r, and three of the six dealt hands to be worse.

To perhaps put the "16" rank of A4KQr better in perspective, although some of the time, in a six handed game, you might expect one of the six dealt hands to be better than A4KQr, and four of the six dealt hands to be worse - usually A4KQr would be the best starting hand of the six dealt.

The reason A4KQr is a better starting hand, overall, than 2345r, is because A4KQr has high card strength.

The basic idea is simple. In general, high cards are better for high than middle cards or low cards. By "better for high" we mean they win for high more often. And there's always a winner for high.

By contrast, there's only a winner for low roughly half of the time in actual play. The other half of the time, either low is not possible or nobody qualifies.

In six handed non-folding simulations, there's a low split about six times out of ten, but in actual practice, there's only a low split about five times out of ten, or possibly less in a very tight game. That's because although the board may have three low ranks, and thus enable low, the hand that might have won low will often have been folded before the showdown.
-----
I'm going to move this thread into the beginner's sticky, because that sticky doesn't yet explain reading low hands and the relative value of low hands.

Buzz

So i've been folding hands like AAKT and KK57. AQJTds (double suited) and KK97ds. is this bad? I am under the impression that i should only play hands that have scoop potential.

What you play often depends on your opponents and your position. I rarely fold AAKT and AQJTds. How, or if, I play KK57 and KK97ds would depend completely on my opponents and position.

Because people often play low cards, if you are at a table and the majority of the people are in the pot pre-flop a hand like AAKT or AQJTds has plenty of scoop potential because most of the low cards have already been dealt out and the board is more likely to come high.

Hands with KK and little else are somewhat difficult to play in my opinion. Hands like KK97ds are basically only good for set mining the Kings. The double suitedness is nice, but if you get any big action when you hit a flush, and the ace of that suite isn't on the board, watch out. When I was first learning I would lose money playing the King high flush too aggressively. Remember that people like to play hands suited to the aces and so if this hand was dealt, it is probably in play.

KK57 has two low cards, but the 5 and 7 will rarely win the low, so once again you are pretty much only playing to hit a set of Kings.

When set mining Kings you also have to ask yourself what hands will give you action once you hit your set. If the flop is K92, how many hands are going to stack off verse you with your set of Kings? Usually none. The times you do get action is usually when you are only a slight favorite or a slight dog with your top set.

My final thought is, don't be afraid to play high only hands depending on the situation. When you do, just remember to play smart and try not to get into situations where you are playing for only half the pot and someone else has the low locked up and is freerolling you.

Hope that helps. Others might have different views than my own, but that's my advice. Good luck.

Tarvaris has given a good answer.

I wouldn't characterize folding these hands as "bad," but it doesn't seem good either, at least for two of these hands. You should probably look them all up yourself to get their relative rankings.

• AAKT even if a rainbow is nice starting hand. I think you should be playing this one.
• (AT)(QJ) double suited is not quite as nice, but still is probably usually the best but sometimes the second best starting hand at a six-max table. I think you should be playing this one too.

• (K9)(K7) double suited can be a more difficult hand to play than either of the two listed above, and it has a couple of serious flaws. The main difficulty comes from playing a second nut flush draw and then the second nut flush if you make a flush. You can fall into a trap and get in trouble if you're not careful. The two serious flaws are (1) the hand has no low potential, and (2) two middle cards (the seven and the nine) are not good in a starting hand. But if you're a good card player and a good card reader, then you probably should want to see the flop with this hand.

• KK75 rainbow is the worst hand of the lot you've listed. It's a hand you should play in a heads-up match, but at a full table it's a speculative type hand. You really need to see a king on the flop to continue, and that only happens about one time in eight. And even when you get a flop with a king, you're not guaranteed a win. You should probably be folding this one pre-flop, in general.

You're right that you should want to scoop. You're right if you think some starting hands have more inherent scoop potential than others. But there's more to it than just that.

All starting hands have some scoop potential. However, some are more likely to scoop than others. In addition, sometimes one-way hands can be played in such a way as to bully opponents into folding and thus be converted from one-way hands into scoopers.

Buzz

ProPokerTools

Prompted by the extensive use it gets in the forum, decided to go and have a play.

Was surprised to see AAww ranked 1/32, and even more embarrassed at how long it took me to find the 32 rank combo.

Q1. I wasn't able to find the correct syntax to run AA + two wheel cards not being Aces.

Q2. Is it possible to add suitedness to the rankings search, (r for rainbow returns an error) other than assigning a different suit to each card?.

Thanks for all the great info. The hand rankings at pro poker tools are great.

Try AAWW!AAAA,AAAW or AAWW!AAAA!AAAW
The exclamation mark in front of something means "bar this"

Specify four different suits. In other words, use AsAhWdWc instead of AAWWr.

Buzz

The thread in which you've posted is a beginner's thread for beginner's questions. The intent is to have a thread where beginners can ask basic questions about how to play the game of Omaha-8 and get straight answers to their questions.

No offense intended, but if you're fine tuning for the WSOP, your post doesn't really belong here in the Newb's thread.

I'll move your post into it's own thread.

Maybe someone else will give you a better response.

Buzz