We've all suffered the experience of flopping absolutely nothing despite starting with a fanastic hand like A23K and getting in a sweet raise or two preflop. But what we do after that is not necessarily something we all have in common.

I'm happy for you to talk about pot limit, no limit or fixed limit, but as you may know from inhabiting this forum, I'm more of a fixed limit guy, so in my opening post I shall adumbrate upon that variant.

In FLO8 it is often the case that when facing a bet one is getting at least 4 to 1 on a call (oftentimes more >8 to 1) and that leads to people seeing the turn very liberally. That's part of why the game is good, but another reason the game can be good is when one or two players at your table don't call liberally enough.

I worry that I may fall into that latter bracket and I often wonder how to strike the right balance. For me, the problem isn't calling when I shouldn't, it's folding when I should call! The toughest part of the game is figuring out what you peel and what you don't. My General Approach isn't particularly glamorous - it's fold and feel bad that I am playing so fit or fold ABC predictable. I wish I knew any different.

Too often I feel I see a flop like 889 or QJ8 or K4K with something like A234 and end up check/folding. Or I go to turns/rivers, brick the absolute lot and just give up, and my opponents don't need a hand, they just need me to reliably check and fold right on cue because they have the heart to bet and I didn't. But if I did bet, they would call me with air anyway, and I'm barrelling with next to no equity.

It seems to me the main variables that factor in to the decision as to whether to peel are:
-Position in relation to the bettor
-Number of players yet to act behind
-Quality of backdoors
-Immediate pot odds
-Implied odds upon completion of hand
-Assumed overcalls behind affecting pot odds
-Board texture
-Who is in the hand
-What information we know about opponents that could help read opponents' hands who have already called/raised
-How many players are in the hand (affects quality of hand required)

Even though I know this and you know this, we are both so often lost in these situations.

In a heads up or 3 way pot, I am more inclined, having raised with some low hand like A234 and hit no pair no immediate draw, to throw out a desperate continuation bet, and barrel to the end. But they almost always call. So I return to my tried and tested way that seems to lose less money: check and fold and let them win with their garbage.

In a multiway pot, I have to play more honestly. But it's still a lot of check fold!

What is your approach to airballing?

Jeff Hwang says:

"In a multiway pot, having the nut low is more important. In shorthanded pots, position and a two-way hand are more important".

And I totally see his point.

Does that affect how you play a hand like A234? I'm only raising this if I'm confident of creating at least a 4- if not 5-way pot, i.e. in late position after several limpers or in early position if the table dynamics dictate that I can expect multiple coldcalls. If I think the pot is going to be short-handed I don't even bother raising it but I definitely play it.

Also, do you play in games where 2 or 3 players are seeing flops frequently? Just curious. And if so, does it affect your preflop hand selection at all, i.e. would you even play a hand like A234 that's destinated to win half a small pot?

I realize this isn't EXACTLY what you were asking, but I think it's valid to point out that solid preflop decisions can lead to easier postflop decisions.

Just post some hands, there are way too many factors.

My quick reaction is cbetting on many paired boards as preflop agressor is profitable though backdoor equity is super important. And a234 tends to be a really bad hand to cbet on when hero whiffs.

Agree with above. Also depends to me on how often you cbet. If you are cbetting every time you raise I am more likely to call your flop bet with weaker holdings on an ugly flop.

Here's a hand I played recently. This was in a very loose $6/$12 O8 game. I raised from the big blind with A24K. Six or seven of us saw the flop, which was KJ9. I do have top pair, but on this flop and in this game, that's not much. For all practical purposes, I missed.

I checked. The UTG player bet. One player called. When the action got back to me, I folded.

The turn was a blank. The UTG player bet again, this time saying, "I flopped it; why are you still calling?" But his opponent called again, saying, "You flopped it, but I have a flush draw."

The river was another blank. UTG bet for a third time, and this time his opponent folded. Then UTG showed his hand: AT94. So he flopped the nut flush draw, a gutshot to Broadway, and bottom pair, and never improved. My pair of Kings would have won, but I would have had to call a bet on all three streets to get to showdown.

Seeing his bluff, I asked myself: Given that his flop betting range includes semibluffs, should I have called? And I think the answer is no, I should still fold on the flop. If he or the first caller has a straight or a set, I'm way, way behind. In order for me to win this pot, I need both my opponents to be at the very bottom of their range (e.g., a combo draw for one and something that can't call a bet on the river for the other) and I need a perfect runout (no hearts, no Queens, no Tens, no pairs that improve either of them) and I have to have the cojones to call a bet on every street with a single pair. That's just asking too much, I think.

It was a nice starting hand, maybe the best one I'd seen in 3 or 4 hours. But with this flop and no backdoor draws to speak of, just let it go and move on.

>>Seeing his bluff
As he is way ahead it's not a bluff

ex from wiki
In some cases a player may be on a draw but with odds strong enough that he is favored to win the hand. In this case his bet is not classified as a semi-bluff even though his bet may force opponents to fold hands with better current strength.

A lot of the games on Pokerstars are 6max. It's very hard to get a full ring cash game these days.

In the old days they consistently ran from 0.25/50 to 1/2. Then the Americans left. Mostly.

So these days in the 6max it is fairly common to get short handed pots. But you do get some games that are frequently 4+way every flop. And yes I do think there needs to be some opening up of the range in 6max, especially in a tight game with mostly HU or 3 way pots. Hands like JT23, 2479, KQ34, 3 non ace wheel cards and naked A4/5/6 hands can all be considered for small blind completion/open raise, big blind defence and button opens or potentially limps behind depending on the suitedness and exactly what ranks the cards are of the "sub par for full ring" hand.

In a tournament full ring or 6max when the stacks get short and play tightens up as a result there's opportunities to steal blinds with these types of hands.

But yeah my question/disucssion is about bricking out and whether to hold on or not. I guess that happens even more with these types of hands.

yeah in this situation i think you have no other option than to fold. in a heads up pot or maybe 3 way it could be considered to hold till the river, depending on the action. 3 way i think you probably have to make 2 pair to call the end.

also, quoted for story time.

On a board, you probably have around 6:1 chance to draw the nut low and therefore to draw half the pot. I generally consider this is worth chasing the low if there is already (or you think you'll have) 12-13 BB+ in the pot.

It was a bluff on the river.

not really sure how that's a point of contention to begin with but yeah lol

it was definitely a bluff by the river