I've been playing with PokerStrategy.com's Equilab Omaha Hi/Lo calculator to analyze my opening ranges for Omaha 8/b. The calculator will allow you to determine the equity of a hand against 5 randomly chosen ones (I think 6 is the max for a random calculation; any more delivers an error message).

I plugged all of these into a calculation against the 5 random hands and ran it ten separate times, recording the equity for each trial. I then took the average of those ten trials to determine whether or not the average equity was greater than 25%. If so, I concluded those particular hands should be opened for a raise if you're first into the pot. They are as follows:
-A2 with a suited Ace
-A2 with another wheel card
-A2 with Broadway cards
-A2 with a pair (preferably w/ a suited Ace)
-A3 with a suited Ace
-A34x with a suited Ace
-A3 with Broadway cards
-A45x with a suited Ace
-Aces double suited
-JJQQ:KKAA
-QQKA:AAKQ

Does anyone have any opinions on whether some of these hands should be excluded, or if there are any I've forgotten to include in the list?

Also, what are your thoughts on which (if any) of these hands should be three betting pre-flop?

KKwheelwheel is a raise for me. QQWW too depending on position. Also occasionally low wraps like 2345. Obviously being suited and double suited encourages it more.

3-betting is only automatic from any position with AAWX IMO. The rest is situational. If you're acting after a bunch of callers it's good to reraise decent A2 type hands for value, but if you're UTG+1 and UTG raises you may want to just call to encourage other people to join. The opposite goes for bad AA hands. If you're UTG+1 and UTG raises you want to 3-bet all day to hopefully isolate and maintain your positive equity while making it easier to play post-flop, but if you're in the BB and everyone calls you may just want to take a flop and disguise your hand because your equity isn't anything special at that moment and it will be tougher to navigate post.

23 with two broadways like 23QJ, 23KT etc is worth more to me than KK23 (but I would play the KKWW in a lot of spots)

It doesn't seem like it, but 23QJ is a hand that will usually have many possibilities if you hit the key ace. For example, A5T has the nut low draw, wheel draw, and broadway draw. But if you hit the ace with KK23 your kings lose their value.

Then of course, something like 2345 or 2346 if it seems like the aces are live. A4BB and A5BB suited to ace in late position.

I abhor dry aces, if there are many people in the pot I'll instafold to a single raise in the BB with bad aces.

Equity is a good start but should not be the final decision maker in what hands you play imo, some hands have playability advantages

Just an FYI, I just recently added a discussion on O8b starting hands on my website:

http://www.countingouts.com/limit-om...asic-strategy/

^^ strongly disagree about kk32 v qj32. Having KK is way better. The times you hit your set, your hand is strong enough to cap flops or possibly turns for value. You may also set over set people. Not even close.

Yeah maybe I discounted the KK too much as I fully realize the value of having top set. But keep in mind a set of kings is only premium on a two card high flop and and many players even bad ones do not play 99 and TT. So dream scenario does not come up often.

But given the caveat that aces are live in the deck the 23qt may make more in long run given playability aspects. Equity sims cannot fully simulate this.

I ran the same simulation with 2345 double suited, and KK23, QQ23, KT23, and QJ23 single suited. I was really surprised to see 2345 had an average of 25.03% equity against 5 random hands, followed by 24.2, 22.79, 20.43, and 18.03% respectively.

I’m inclined to agree that I prefer high wired pairs with my two wheel cards as opposed to broadway connectors. Their flop equity is always going to include top set, whereas the connectors will more often than not just flop a draw where they can’t even pair up to take the lead.

My lowest qualifying Aces hand is single suited dry Aces, and even those are only in my range as a late position limp. Along with my Opening Range, I have a secondary range that I raise only in late position when it folds around, or allow myself to call a raise when I’m in position. That is followed up by my lowest range of hands that I only limp with in late position. I’ll post these after I finish analyzing them one more time.

Thank you for posting the link to your website, Scotch. I peeked at it for a moment, but I’ll go through it more thoroughly when I’m studying tomorrow morning.

Obviously there are going to be considerations for Push/Pull actions based on position and opens to your right. I definitely think that will be a discussion either later in this post or in a separate thread.

For me for example AA46 (not present in the list) is way better than A299 (included)

If the Aces were double suited, this hand would automatically qualify for an opening raise under the Double Suited Aces clause. However, I may have to add in another Single Suited Aces category that includes either a wheel card, Broadway card, or maybe both. Your AA46 hand held 27.18% equity against 5 random hands when it was single suited. Thank you!

Is stuff like 345x worth playing in early position? Maybe in a very passive game... Would you open with it late?

I would never play this in EP even in the best of games

I would almost always open this on the button though, one exception being if the blinds were sticky pre and post and my fourth card was a useless banana

[QUOTE=ScotchOnDaRocks;53500911]23 with two broadways like 23QJ, 23KT etc is worth more to me than KK23 (but I would play the KKWW in a lot of spots)

It doesn't seem like it, but 23QJ is a hand that will usually have many possibilities if you hit the key ace. For example, A5T has the nut low draw, wheel draw, and broadway draw. But if you hit the ace with KK23 your kings lose their value.


maybe cos i come from a plo8 background but 23jq is going straight in the muck for me. What boards can you scoop? you dont have a nut flush. even a45 board ur gonna check call due to higher straight possibilities or boat and wheel or flush and wheel possibilities.

[QUOTE=TS2;53504925] A hand like 23QJ is not one where I'm playing a multi-way pot moseying around just calling and trying to scoop

It is an ace dependent hand so I'm playing it in shorthanded pots with wider ranges. When an ace flops, I typically have many possibilities and with those outs I can apply pressure and win many hands with no showdown or failing that escape with lows, wheels, broadways, or simply just a pair of queens or jacks

23QJ ain't AA23 though!

Equity vs “random hands” is not a great way to choose hands since you’re often against less than random hands. For example, what range or hands is UTG likely to have vs what is the BB likely to complete with or call 2 cold with?

That definitely crossed my mind when I was running the calcs. My thought process was to determine hands that can stand pressure when opening from UTG, which means we won't have any information on opponents yet to act. I will work on a more exhaustive range to range comparison as I get deeper in my studying, but for now I just wanted a small (ish) list of hands that can comfortably open without having to worry about being three bet.

I'd be interested in having a chat with you when you make some more progress with this.