In FLO, do you open this hand or hands like it?

I used to. My reasoning was that it helps cover holes in my range so that I can have strong hands on 2hi of 3hi flops.

But, I've been going through PPT hand rankings. It says that in a 3handed game, this is a bottom 20% hand. (in a 6 handed game, still bottom 40%). I'm not sure how they determine their hand rankings, but they think this has absolutely stinks. Based on those hand rankings, these hands should always be folded unless in the blinds. Additionally, PPT says that KQTTss, eg, is a big upgrade. So is AKJTss, curiously.

Thoughts?

It's very much a playable hand from LP/MP and my guess is that those equity calcs are coming out that way bc it cant make a low. Not saying they are wrong, but they don't seem to represent the playability and value of the hand.

It would be way too nitty to fold this from late position. Depending on how high the suit was, I could see opening this from HJ, maybe earlier, if the 9 was a T.

It's vulnerable on lots of boards and is a one-way hand, but as you noted, it's important to have hands that can credibly cbet the high card flops. Also, we can get away from it pretty easily when we don't flop good.

I think the answer to this question depends on the game you are playing in.

In a tighter game where only 3-4 people are seeing the flop, a hand of top pair, top kicker or two pair will frequently be sufficient to win the high hand.
AA is a much more valuable holding in a tight game because it so often makes the best two pair hand when the board pairs with a card that no one is holding.

When AA-QQ is not present, a hand like JQKA will often present itself with similar properties and present additional opportunities for a straight when the board contains the high card which you are not holding.

If 6-7 players are seeing the flop and playing mid-range cards, it's harder for these hands to hold up with much less than the nuts. When the board is paired on the flop, someone usually has trips.

As far as their being suited, you gotta proceed with caution when pursuing anything other than a nut flush draw. If you flop a flush in my 8-16 O8 game, it's going to cost you $40 to call 3 bets to the river if someone else takes the lead.

I value those non nut flush outs against a single villain who is representing a set or made straight. Later position is obviously helpful in figuring that out.

Short-handed play is all about 2way potential so the poor ranking isn't surprising, not that this hand is particularly good multiway with more players anyway

it is situationally playable and marginally profitable in late position against weaker players, against good players (including blinds) its going to be much less profitable and should be mucked most of the time

Non Ace, non-paired broadway double suited hands are a fair amount weaker than paired broadway hands like KKQT, KQTT with a suit but I would still open limp KQT9ds MP/some EP and open raise HJ-SB in most games I play in as I believe I can get away from it for cheap when I miss and get solid value when I hit.

The hand looks so nice and its so tempting to play. But I'm really starting to think it's a huge leak based on equity%

it is 45% heads up vs a random hand!

If we must cover high hands we can still use the versions that have a high pair, an ace, or are double suited. Can anyone show it is actually a profitable hand to play?

You should absolutely be opening with some high-only hands. But I would limit these to hands with an ace or a high pair in them unless folded to you in very late position. You could also limp a hand like this on the button with several other limpers. But otherwise I think it's a fold.

Assuming the 45% is true, I don't think that automatically means it should rarely be played. The primary virtue of this kind of hand is that, when it wins, it will often scoop. However, many players probably aren't going to play it properly and may end up drawing to non nut flushes on two low card boards and losing a lot of $ paying off a nut flush and/or whiffing.

I'm far from a great O8 player, but fwiw this seems like solid advice to me. As I once read about these kinds of hands they play well in small pots with few players and large pots with many players. I also think these are the kinds of hands that it is especially important to play in position.

folded to me, i would open this OTB but otherwise try to limp if i think i can get a bunch of people in.

think nickmpk's advice is the best and the more i think about it the more i like it. the whole point of a high only hand is to scoop someone else going your way. probably the most common way to do that and actually get action is to go up against a low Axxx hand with your own bigger Axxx hand.

There are different kinds of O8b games

In full ring looser games I’d only play this late for one bet following limpers

In 6max or higher limit TAG games I’d open raise from button and cutoff probably

Equity vs a random hand doesn’t have as much relevance as in other games. 2668ss has around 55% vs the kqt9ss hand but much easier for the latter hand to recognize its equity. If hands like 2668 get too sticky they won’t last long in any game

what do you mean by too sticky?

If they try to go to showdown too often

oh right. thanks

those are all equities based on showing down 100%. but kqt9 has way more playability 3handed.