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Old 08-29-2017, 01:49 PM   #1
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Club FLO8: Flop Top Two vs. Good T8ght Player

FR 2/4 Online. A tight player limps UTG and folded to Hero at BB with AQT8.

Flop: A84

What is the best play on flop for Hero?
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Old 08-29-2017, 01:56 PM   #2
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Re: FLO8: Flop Top Two vs. Good T8ght Player

i'd start by betting. unless player is exceptionally tight, i.e. they only play top tier hands and they never raise when they play, you seem to have the best hand.

furthermore, betting helps you define what's going on. checking doesn't.
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Old 08-29-2017, 02:05 PM   #3
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Re: FLO8: Flop Top Two vs. Good T8ght Player

Full ring, one limper UTG and folds around to BB? Ugh that is tight. Definitely would bet. If turn improves you, like a high spade, then I would barrel turn and river. If turn is brick, maybe check call turn, some turn cards may be so bad that you eject right then. My take on these micro pots is sort of fit-or-fold since the odds are worse than trying to win a nice big juicy pot.
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Old 08-29-2017, 11:18 PM   #4
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Re: FLO8: Flop Top Two vs. Good T8ght Player

Ok. Hero checks flop instead. Now UTG bets, what shall Hero do now? Check/raise, call, or fold?
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Old 08-29-2017, 11:48 PM   #5
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Re: FLO8: Flop Top Two vs. Good T8ght Player

even SB folded pre-flop? 9 handed?

you are only trying for high, unless you can get them to fold

what would you do on turn if it is a 2,3, or 5 ?


I think the best play for Hero is to leave game
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Old 08-30-2017, 01:43 PM   #6
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Re: FLO8: Flop Top Two vs. Good T8ght Player

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Originally Posted by robert_utk View Post
Full ring, one limper UTG and folds around to BB? Ugh that is tight. Definitely would bet. If turn improves you, like a high spade, then I would barrel turn and river. If turn is brick, maybe check call turn, some turn cards may be so bad that you eject right then. My take on these micro pots is sort of fit-or-fold since the odds are worse than trying to win a nice big juicy pot.
Yup. Flop is a bet, checking just leaves you guessing.
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Old 08-30-2017, 05:11 PM   #7
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Re: FLO8: Flop Top Two vs. Good T8ght Player

I think flop is a check. Normally calling but against opponent described folding could be ok. If you call down to river hero is mostly hoping for it to be break-even. Hero is still at a range disadvantage vs tight player with villain making a low on flop close to half the time. Will have a lo by river more than 3/4 time.

Only lead if villain overfolds.
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Old 08-30-2017, 07:47 PM   #8
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Re: FLO8: Flop Top Two vs. Good T8ght Player

To add to this, I gave 'tight player' top 20% range, which means he would limp monsters like aa2 and ran a few sims before I posted
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Old 08-30-2017, 08:32 PM   #9
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Re: FLO8: Flop Top Two vs. Good T8ght Player

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Originally Posted by monikrazy View Post
To add to this, I gave 'tight player' top 20% range, which means he would limp monsters like aa2 and ran a few sims before I posted
Equity-wise we're behind Villain's range of 20% (55.34% : 44.66%). Call his flop bet isn't that bad since the pot offers like 3.25 : 1 after Villain bets flop. No?

I thought I shall generally give a tight player a narrower range, less than 20%, after he limps UTG since he would NOT limp "20% hands" like:

5x 4- 2x 2-
Kx 5x 4- 2-
Kx Qy Tx 9y
Ax 7x 6- 4x
Kx 5- 4- 2x
Ax K- K- 7x
A- Q- 9- 3-
Kx K- 5- 3x
Ax Qx Jx 5-
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Old 08-30-2017, 09:05 PM   #10
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Re: FLO8: Flop Top Two vs. Good T8ght Player

Generally a tight player who limps UTG will have a very tight range. I would guess top hands that want more players. The given flop though would usually give a pair of aces and a bunch of backdoors, but not a flopped low. Ugh, this is why I tread lightly in these spots.

monikrazy, if there were two more limpers for a four way pot would we be more or less likely to bet at this flop?

Thank you.
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Old 08-31-2017, 05:03 AM   #11
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Re: FLO8: Flop Top Two vs. Good T8ght Player

I would bet and evaluate from there. Yes, if he has pocket Aces, you're toast. But I think it's a mistake to put him on that one hand exactly. Even if he raises on the flop, he could have A235 (uncounterfeitable nut low and a wheel wrap), A257 (second-nut low and a double gutter), A245 (a smaller two pair than yours plus a gutshot to a wheel), A25K (top pair/top kicker plus a gutshot to a wheel).

But what if he limped preflop with A2KK or A2KT or A2QJ? With all these hands, his low just got counterfeited, and his high is only one pair. He might fold to a flop bet with these hands, whereas if you check to him, he might bet with them, and you'll have no idea where you're at.

If you're up against a set of Aces in this spot, I think you just have to pay them off. Or at least see what cards come on the turn and river and reevaluate the action then.
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Old 08-31-2017, 08:28 AM   #12
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Re: FLO8: Flop Top Two vs. Good T8ght Player

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Originally Posted by agamblerthen View Post
I would bet and evaluate from there. Yes, if he has pocket Aces, you're toast. But I think it's a mistake to put him on that one hand exactly. Even if he raises on the flop, he could have A235 (uncounterfeitable nut low and a wheel wrap), A257 (second-nut low and a double gutter), A245 (a smaller two pair than yours plus a gutshot to a wheel), A25K (top pair/top kicker plus a gutshot to a wheel).

But what if he limped preflop with A2KK or A2KT or A2QJ? With all these hands, his low just got counterfeited, and his high is only one pair. He might fold to a flop bet with these hands, whereas if you check to him, he might bet with them, and you'll have no idea where you're at.

If you're up against a set of Aces in this spot, I think you just have to pay them off. Or at least see what cards come on the turn and river and reevaluate the action then.
There are many interesting theoretical aspects to this spot, for instance villain should probably never fold this flop with his entire range

the more practical questions if he is weak-tight is is he cbetting widely enough to justify xc? And related, is he overfolding to cbets with a2/a3 and no made lo yet

There are enough bad run-outs that I think hero should be very reluctant to take a triple-barrel line with this particular hand, I have plenty of other hands to lead here - I would consider leading here vs very strong opponents but against the one described it seems extremely thin
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Old 08-31-2017, 05:24 PM   #13
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Re: FLO8: Flop Top Two vs. Good T8ght Player

The first stab at this micro-pot is basically a half-pot bet. Even though UTG has big range advantage, UTG will often only be playing for a low, and usually not a nut low. I think whomever calls the first bet in this pot makes a mistake, unless UTG has AA or A23 specifically, and should reraise.
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Old 08-31-2017, 08:41 PM   #14
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Re: FLO8: Flop Top Two vs. Good T8ght Player

Check-call.
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Old 09-01-2017, 06:50 AM   #15
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Re: FLO8: Flop Top Two vs. Good T8ght Player

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Originally Posted by Hero Value View Post
Check-call.
How do you feel about ch/c and then lead 8, 9, T, Q (maybe J and/or K). This way worst-case scenario you're only freerolled for one street and when he doesn't have a low yet you're ensuring a bet goes in. Or do you prefer checking again?
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Old 09-01-2017, 09:56 AM   #16
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Re: FLO8: Flop Top Two vs. Good T8ght Player

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Originally Posted by RolldUpTrips View Post
How do you feel about ch/c and then lead 8, 9, T, Q (maybe J and/or K). This way worst-case scenario you're only freerolled for one street and when he doesn't have a low yet you're ensuring a bet goes in. Or do you prefer checking again?

Worst-case scenario villain has a set and hero is drawing dead. That being said, I think leading any boat, q, 9, or 7 against this opponent is reasonable. I think villain can gain a lot of equity with the t and would tread carefully even though we still have top 2, getting quartered isn't a good outcome.
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Old 09-01-2017, 04:39 PM   #17
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Re: FLO8: Flop Top Two vs. Good T8ght Player

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Originally Posted by RolldUpTrips View Post
How do you feel about ch/c and then lead 8, 9, T, Q (maybe J and/or K). This way worst-case scenario you're only freerolled for one street and when he doesn't have a low yet you're ensuring a bet goes in. Or do you prefer checking again?
I kind of like it. I'd almost definitely lead an 8 turn. (Check-raise an A turn.) Potentially also a Q and a T, then maybe check K, J and 9.
"Ensuring" a bet goes in OTT isn't that big of a deal though, as the most equity edge we could be pushing realistically is around 65/35% (which is quite a lot for this game), but he might still bet with those hands when checked to anyway. And also we would likely have to put in 2 bets in when freerolled/crushed.
For example on a 9 turn, we have 62/38% vs AKJ2 (a hand that he might reasonably check back), vs AK52 we have 38% vs 62%, and vs A279 we have just 15%.
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Old 09-02-2017, 01:02 AM   #18
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Re: FLO8: Flop Top Two vs. Good T8ght Player

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I kind of like it. I'd almost definitely lead an 8 turn. (Check-raise an A turn.) Potentially also a Q and a T, then maybe check K, J and 9.
"Ensuring" a bet goes in OTT isn't that big of a deal though, as the most equity edge we could be pushing realistically is around 65/35% (which is quite a lot for this game), but he might still bet with those hands when checked to anyway. And also we would likely have to put in 2 bets in when freerolled/crushed.
For example on a 9 turn, we have 62/38% vs AKJ2 (a hand that he might reasonably check back), vs AK52 we have 38% vs 62%, and vs A279 we have just 15%.
I feel like the AK hands that he would be the flop (ie not all high) with would all be raised pre. Nobody (remotely decent) open limps AKW hands, that's why I liked leading the K. The J scares me more and the 9 I figured is an unlikely enough dangler. You're of course right that we should k/r the A.
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Old 09-02-2017, 01:16 AM   #19
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Re: FLO8: Flop Top Two vs. Good T8ght Player

Decent players can definitely limp very strong hands (like AKW) UTG full ring. In fact, they should only have strong hands.
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Old 09-02-2017, 02:01 AM   #20
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Re: FLO8: Flop Top Two vs. Good T8ght Player

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Decent players can definitely limp very strong hands (like AKW) UTG full ring. In fact, they should only have strong hands.
Different types of strong hands. AKW is a push hand. Better candidates for limps are all high, all low, or AWW and T or J, probably ds since you're pulling.
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Old 09-02-2017, 06:22 PM   #21
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Re: FLO8: Flop Top Two vs. Good T8ght Player

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Originally Posted by RolldUpTrips View Post
I feel like the AK hands that he would be the flop (ie not all high) with would all be raised pre. Nobody (remotely decent) open limps AKW hands, that's why I liked leading the K. The J scares me more and the 9 I figured is an unlikely enough dangler. You're of course right that we should k/r the A.
Quote:
Originally Posted by RolldUpTrips View Post
Different types of strong hands. AKW is a push hand. Better candidates for limps are all high, all low, or AWW and T or J, probably ds since you're pulling.
Yep I fully agree with all of this.
And I did think of that when writing the post, but I took into account the player and the range described, and that it's $2/4 etc.
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