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Old 11-16-2017, 06:00 PM   #1
WINNINGSTEK
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Is this Ever a Good Call? 25NLO8

So I make, in my eyes, a fairly standard semi-bluff on the turn blocking the nuts and drawing to a flush and a powerful (5 river is gin) wheel. Then I face a shove. I remember thinking "why the f would he shove a wheel?" and "I could be freerolling here" (I thought he could be overplaying AK, AA or KK which retrospectively seems highly unlikely) so I damn near snap call.

Now he might be ripping something like A56 with a flush draw but probably not, right? Even still, I have the tiniest of edges over that hand and he probably just has the wheel.

Anyways, I'm interested in your thoughts about this hand.

    Poker Stars, $0.10/$0.25 No Limit Omaha H/L Cash, 5 Players
    Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite. View Hand #37872113

    SB: $16.85 (67.4 bb)
    Hero (BB): $29.15 (116.6 bb)
    MP: $25.41 (101.6 bb)
    CO: $46.29 (185.2 bb)
    BTN: $24.75 (99 bb)

    Preflop: Hero is BB with 2 6 4 2
    MP raises to $0.50, CO calls $0.50, BTN calls $0.50, SB folds, Hero calls $0.25

    Flop: ($2.10) K 3 A (4 players)
    Hero checks, MP checks, CO bets $1.50, BTN folds, Hero calls $1.50, MP calls $1.50

    Turn: ($6.60) 4 (3 players)
    Hero bets $3.41, MP folds, CO raises to $44.29 and is all-in, Hero calls $23.74 and is all-in

    River: ($60.90) 7 (2 players, 2 are all-in)

    Spoiler:



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    Old 11-16-2017, 06:33 PM   #2
    amok
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    Re: Is this Ever a Good Call? 25NLO8

    Haven't looked at the results, but I'd just always fold here.

    I think you should have enough 25xx with this line that you can fold everything else (which should be mainly 22xx). Very hard to come up with lots of hands for villain that would be incentivized to shove turns, thus I think he is just often fast playing the wheel, which probably is very common in low limits.

    Btw not sure if this hand is that good to bet OTT, since you can often just pick it up with a bet OTR when it gets checked around and getting raised is very bad for your exact hand i.e. I think your hand is too good to be bet/folded but too weak to bet/getin. You could just start with a check and call or raise/shove if someone bets.
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    Old 11-17-2017, 02:57 AM   #3
    billygstar
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    Re: Is this Ever a Good Call? 25NLO8

    Don't like betting turn for reasons amok stated and defo don't like the call as played unless villain is doing some really dumb stuff.

    Check calling flop is fine obv but i`d also be considering check raising flop and shoving most turns or just checking shoving flop. A little deep but you`re going to be in ok to good shape often enough when you don't get folds.
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    Old 11-19-2017, 11:29 AM   #4
    the_spike
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    Re: Is this Ever a Good Call? 25NLO8

    Especially in NL this is a fold. That's pretty much the whole point of NLO/8 - don't fall for this. You want to be freerolling when huge overbets occur, or at least have redraws. Not bluffcatching (unless you have ample evidence.)
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    Old 11-19-2017, 11:34 PM   #5
    TS2
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    Re: Is this Ever a Good Call? 25NLO8

    fold pre , fold turn.

    horrible starting hand u dont want to see a flop. onm turn u cant call a raise, turn is bet fold.
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    Old 11-20-2017, 08:12 AM   #6
    Delbertt
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    Re: Is this Ever a Good Call? 25NLO8

    The defend from the BB is fine but you have to fold the turn IMO.
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    Old 11-20-2017, 01:17 PM   #7
    billygstar
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    Re: Is this Ever a Good Call? 25NLO8

    Folding pre is ridiculously tight.
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    Old 11-21-2017, 01:46 AM   #8
    ZockenRobot
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    Re: Is this Ever a Good Call? 25NLO8

    Writing this before looking at spoiler.

    Not to be a jerk but why WOULDN'T he shove a wheel? He has the nuts both ways. He might have clubs or some other kind of freeroll and want to jam it up while he has an edge.

    Fold.
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    Old 11-21-2017, 01:50 AM   #9
    amok
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    Re: Is this Ever a Good Call? 25NLO8

    Not to be a jerk but you shouldn't shove a wheel if you are not shoving any other hands. The most simple way to keep your range strong is not to have raises on the turn.
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    Old 11-22-2017, 03:55 AM   #10
    billygstar
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    Re: Is this Ever a Good Call? 25NLO8

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by ZockenRobot View Post
    Writing this before looking at spoiler.

    Not to be a jerk but why WOULDN'T he shove a wheel? He has the nuts both ways. He might have clubs or some other kind of freeroll and want to jam it up while he has an edge.

    Fold.
    Because he's usually folding out anything other than a wheel. I'd prefer raising some bluffs and wheels OTT as opposed to shoving 80+ BB's. He has no bluff raising range OTT now in these spots as I cant imagine him shoving 90 BB's without the wheel.

    Players that shove in spots like this usually have pretty one dimensional games with little balance and are easy to play against.

    I know he also has a baby club draw so he's probably freerolling if OP does also have a bare wheel but this scenero doesn't happen enough to justify shoving unless he thinks OP is a gigantic fish which is doubtful.

    It's obv a really bad call by OP but prob over thought it a bit having blockers but thinking villain has AK or AA w/e is way hopeful.
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    Old 11-23-2017, 05:40 AM   #11
    RolldUpTrips
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    Re: Is this Ever a Good Call? 25NLO8

    Folding pre is ridiculous.
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    Old 12-04-2017, 05:30 AM   #12
    ZockenRobot
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    Re: Is this Ever a Good Call? 25NLO8

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by amok View Post
    Not to be a jerk but you shouldn't shove a wheel if you are not shoving any other hands. The most simple way to keep your range strong is not to have raises on the turn.
    How do we know he is not shoving any other hands?

    I get that the shove is bad because of the sizing but it can't be correct to never raise the turn as villain can it? He is missing so much value when he has the nut/nut with a redraw. I think with only 5 high clubs it is a bit crazy but with higher clubs I still like villain's play. Even if he only gets called by wheels that is fine as he is freerolling to a flush. As for bluff combos to balance he could have 55 or 22 like hero's hand.

    A strong calling range could be wheels with no redraw or something like QcJc62.
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    Old 12-04-2017, 05:55 AM   #13
    amok
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    Re: Is this Ever a Good Call? 25NLO8

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by ZockenRobot View Post
    How do we know he is not shoving any other hands?
    We don't. I'm just saying that as villain you probably shouldn't shove any hands.

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by ZockenRobot View Post
    I get that the shove is bad because of the sizing but it can't be correct to never raise the turn as villain can it?
    I believe it's a perfectly viable strategy.
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by ZockenRobot View Post
    He is missing so much value when he has the nut/nut with a redraw. I think with only 5 high clubs it is a bit crazy but with higher clubs I still like villain's play. Even if he only gets called by wheels that is fine as he is freerolling to a flush. As for bluff combos to balance he could have 55 or 22 like hero's hand.

    A strong calling range could be wheels with no redraw or something like QcJc62.
    Is he missing so much value? What happens on the river if Hero happens to have a wheel and villain hits his wheel+flush with this hand? Not really questions, just food for thought.
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    Old 12-04-2017, 07:38 PM   #14
    ZockenRobot
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    Re: Is this Ever a Good Call? 25NLO8

    Good point I guess he can get that last bet in to quarter anyway.
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    Old Yesterday, 02:22 PM   #15
    WINNINGSTEK
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    Re: Is this Ever a Good Call? 25NLO8

    Got another questionable call here.

    I'm playing against two maniacs here (68 and 75 VPIP respectively) but I'm pretty sure the guy who re-shoves has aces here. His first 4-bet pre. I only need like 19 % here, right?

      Poker Stars, $0.25/$0.50, $0.10 ante Pot Limit Omaha H/L Cash, 6 Players
      Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite. View Hand #37900278

      SB: $92.87 (185.7 bb)
      BB: $46.67 (93.3 bb)
      UTG: $88.73 (177.5 bb)
      Hero (MP): $221.44 (442.9 bb)
      CO: $88.88 (177.8 bb)
      BTN: $50 (100 bb)

      Preflop: Hero is MP with A Q 2 3
      UTG raises to $2.35, Hero raises to $8.40, 3 folds, BB calls $7.90, UTG raises to $34.45, Hero calls $26.05, BB calls $26.05

      Flop: ($104.20) K 4 K (3 players)
      BB bets $12.12 and is all-in, UTG raises to $54.18 and is all-in, Hero calls $54.18

      Turn: ($224.68) 2 (3 players, 2 are all-in)
      River: ($224.68) 3 (3 players, 2 are all-in)

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      Old Yesterday, 04:12 PM   #16
      ngFTW
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      Re: Is this Ever a Good Call? 25NLO8

      hero needs 26.91% 3way equity for calling to be better then folding, when hero suspects his opponent in the sidepot to have AA and estimates his hu equity vs AA on the flop is 20%.

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