My first post. I've spent this whole week searching for answers and haven't found anything specific to what happened to me. Any advice on how to approach this would help tremendously. I know I will get bashed for being a little oblivious to situation, I deserve it. But less bashing, more sound advice/opinions please...

- Game in question - PLO 8 2/5 blinds, 10 bring in, min buy in 200, max 2000
- Me - Experienced Fixed Limit 20/40 Omaha 8 player for more than a decade

I've been playing fixed limit Omaha 8 hi-lo for more than a decade. Casual weekend player, but very solid and not an action chaser. Profitable. I'm all the way up to 20/40 blinds now and it is not out of my comfort zone to lose a rack or two on a bad night. It happens in this game. I can take those hits. The point is not the amount of money lost, but the feeling that I got cheated out of it. Here's the situation....

There is a website that lists everything from meeting people to play poker to finding people to go on hikes with, etc. I searched poker one night and found a bunch of groups. I found one that actually had pot limit Omaha 8, which we do not have where I live. I was very intrigued at this, as I am pretty decent at PLO high as well. I contacted the organizer and got in his game at his house. For the past decade, I've only played at casinos, so this was going to be my first time in a home game. I obviously was alert and cautious when I got there, but I figured I'd just buy-in for the minimum to see if I could be comfortable in this game without having to worry about collusion, cheating, etc. Everybody was friendly and they had a "professional" dealer... no players shuffled or cut the cards.

The game started with 8 players of all different ages, races and backgrounds. That was refreshing because it reduced the fact that I was walking into a group of college buddies trying to scam me. Here is what everyone bought in for.

1 - 600
2 - 600
3 - 400
4 - 200
5 - 400
6 - 600
7 - 200
8 - 2000 (max)

First red flag: The game started WITHOUT a shuffle.

They did have 2 decks, and the dealer shuffled the other deck while action was going around the table. It was my first time with these guys so I didn't want to say something. I just was on the lookout for something fishy within the first two hands. Nothing crazy happened. I lost my minimum buy-in in 2 hours on a counterfeited A2 low while missing my nut flush. Normal loss. I felt comfortable at the game. Nothing else seemed fishy. So what did my dumb brain let me do? I bought in for the max 2000 next time. So after about 20 minutes, the hand in question comes into play....

me - KQQ10 double suited
chip leader (2400) - JJ82 rainbow
3rd player (lost his initial 600, bought in for 1000) - A234 2 clubs

about 100 in the pot before the flop

Flop comes....QJ5 2 clubs

chip leader checks, other player checks to me, I pot it. Everyone calls

Turn comes 7 diamonds.

Set of jacks checks. Nut low draw/flush draw checks. I pot it again. And they both call, with the draw guy all in.

Now, my heart rate was jacked. My first time in PLO8 and I can't get these guys out. I know what I have to avoid. I'm calling for another queen in my head or at least no club or low card.

River comes J! The case jack, I have queens full and for 3 or 4 seconds, I'm in Happyville. First to act chip leader Hollywoods "Ehhh, pot." My heart dropped. All in guy was obviously disgusted. I had about 900 in front of me. The thoughts that were running through my head after I called time....

"Did he really check call all the way with second set?"
"Did he miss everything and trying to push me out?"
"I've played for a decade (thousands among thousands of hands in Omaha 8 and BIG O and can't recall ever getting one-outed for the high with no low out there) and there's no way this is happening the first time I play pot limit with a bunch of strangers"

The one big thing I caught before the river came seemed super odd to me and this has weighed into my speculation of being cheated. The dealer seemed to "peek" under the deck before he dealt the river while tilting his head a little (there was a base card concealer that was white though).

After 2-3 minutes, I called and obviously he had quad J's. I was gutshot. The all-in guy stormed out after revealing his cards. He did say bye though.

So, I took a walk, bought in for 200 again, and left after 3 hours being felted by getting my money all in pre flop with AA24 2 hearts.

So.... here is what I saw from this....

The top 3 stacks were in this pot.

Me and the all in guy were the "new" guys (me 1st time, all in guy's 2nd time) where I had top set with the straight draw and he had the nut flush and low draws, and the winning regular hits the miracle one-outer for a 5000 dollar pot

The dealer "peeked" at the bottom of the deck before the fateful river


I've tried to post all the information I remember so it will help. I've been reading all over the internet how dealers can manipulate cards and so forth, and I just can't get over it. Like tricky mirrors or reflective stuff. Anyways....



Do you think I got cheated?
Can I report this to authorities/law enforcement?
Can I get my money back through civil litigation?
Should I confront the event host about this?


Thoughts???

Based on my careful reading of OP, I do not view it as particularly likely you were cheated. More details on how the game was organized, hosted, raked could provide useful context.

Plo8 is a high variance game, and the hand you lost does not sound suspicious.

Fold preflop?

You probably didn't get cheated.
Doesn't seem that suspicious to me either.

He definitely would CR you in case of a cheat, so as he lead out - IMO it's just a bad beat.

stick to casinos.

The game was organized by the event host. It's a weekly game from what he told me. He said he's had this regular game at his home for about 5 years. Everything was free, including food, drinks, etc. The rake was 10% of the pot up to a $25 maximum not matter how big the pot got.

I definitely understand the high variance in this game, but it does not seem like coincidence to me that first off...

The guy that bought in for the max (winner with the quads) was a super tight player (after watching him all night before and after the fact), and he limped under the gun with JJ82 rainbow, then called another $20 with 2 players in front of him. He also folded a limped family pot from the BB with $2000 in front of him before the hand in question happened.

It just happened to be that the 3 biggest stacks at the table all got these hands, and the 2 losers were both new to the game.

The host told me that the dealer dealt the final table of the WSOP Main Event, so I assume he has experience handling cards.

The rake was being pulled in WHILE the hand was going on, so that was another red flag to me. How can you take 10% of a pot that's not final? Seems super shady.

Players were dealt into hands even though they weren't at the table and didn't announce themselves to be dealt in. I'm thinking that this was done as to not disturb the order of the cards.

I'm going to assume that since this is a huge poker forum, that someone from that game is going to see this post, maybe even comment on it bashing my suspicions. I'm prepared for the worst.

That is a horribly high rake. But it is not unusual to start taking a percentage rake before the betting is complete; every room I have ever played in does that.

From a practical standpoint, host is making so much from rake, that cheating would be silly and unnecessary.

Of course, player and dealer could still collude in theory outside of hosts knowledge, but really the game isnt that big so it seems fairly unlikely.

why would they cheat you with a hand that you're supposed to fold pre?

it's like calling a raise with J8o and then complaining that the guy with aces cheated you when the board ran out 888AA

The original raiser lost as well. The guy who won called with JJ82 rainbow. I wouldn't mind if I got beat by the A234 (original raiser) or even the JJ82. The entire situation is what I am posting about, not just a bad beat. If I took this beat in a casino, this post would never have been posted. Thank you for the advice on pre-flop hand play, but I do just fine the way I play.

Thank you for your thoughts. I already made peace with the situation and will obviously avoid this game or any unknown home game in general. I'm sticking to casinos and fixed limit Omaha 8 games.

you're obviously missing a point

if they wanted to cheat you they would have dealt you AA23 or some such and then put a AJ4 board out, why would they go through all the motions and waste a great setup by a very skilled mechanic in a super high rake game when a competent player would just muck the hand?

why not repot right on the flop if they know a case J is coming, and deny you a chance however small to fold


makes very little sense

I did miss your point and I'm not as advanced as you are, I suppose. I do get what you're saying. I'm sticking to fixed limit where I am pretty profitable for a casual weekend player. This Pot Limit stuff sounds too complicated. Thanks for your thoughts, it's opened my eyes.

The rake is pretty high indeed, but with someone buying in deep who doesn't check-raise turn with 2nd set there and leads the river when he hits quads I suppose the game is beatable. Also, if they were cheating they did it in a nonsensical way as already pointed out.

No, I don't. And I find it odd that you can't remember being one-outed before. I see it happen to someone almost every time I play LO8. Sometimes I'm the victim, sometimes I'm the luckbox, sometimes I'm just a witness. Middle set makes quads to beat top set: ho-hum. If it were an $8/$16 game at your local casino, you wouldn't think twice about it.

I don't know where this game took place—and I'm not a lawyer—but I'm guessing it was illegal. You could probably get the host in trouble by reporting it, but you're definitely not getting your money back.

No. Again, I'm not a lawyer. Ask one.

Do you have any evidence to prove that cheating took place? A videotape that shows the dealer cold-decking you or bottom-dealing? An audiotape of the colluders celebrating their score? Witnesses who'd be willing to testify under oath what they observed? I didn't think so.

To what purpose? He's going to say what monikrazy wrote—that he doesn't need to cheat you because he's making $2,000/week (after expenses) hosting this game. Also, most people don't take kindly to being accused of cheating.

You sound like the guy who plays online for the first time, gets unlucky, and is subsequently convinced the game is rigged.

No one solicited your participation in this game—you sought them out, remember? And no one forced you to buy in for the maximum after losing your initial minimum buy-in.

Several of your comments suggest that you went to this game half-expecting to be scammed in some way. Did confirmation bias kick in—in other words, did you find the red flags you were looking for?

There are a couple of factors that made you uncomfortable in this situation. You were playing in a home game with strangers when you're used to playing in legal casinos. You were playing PLO8 when you're used to playing LO8. And you got unlucky and lost ~$2,000 in a single hand when you're probably not used to losing more than ~$240 or $280 in a single hand. But your discomfort does not mean you were cheated.

If I were writing this scene for a movie, the chip leader would get a more legitimately playable hand—something like AJJT or AJJ3. And then I would have the turn be an off-suit deuce, giving the player with A234 11 additional straight outs to go with his nut flush and nut low draws. Maybe the turn would also give you a flush draw—and I'd probably put a suited Ace in your hand to make sure you played it aggressively, something like AKQQ or AQQT. Then all the money would go in on the turn, and on one could be questioned for playing their hand the way they did.

In other words, if I were setting up a cold deck, I'd come up with something better than what this random shuffle gave you.

And if a cold deck is the suspected mode of cheating here, then the dealer's head tilt and possible peek (at what? I'm not sure) are unnecessary and therefore meaningless.

You hit the nail on the head with that! I've come to realize this was the most likely explanation after reading all the replies to this thread. As I mentioned before, I'm sticking to fixed limit and casinos. The swing is too big in that game for me. Thanks for your detailed reply and wording out what I was already thinking.

I got felted with the same hand in my last MTT of 2017.

It was FT of $1,100 PLO8 MTT at Venetian. While down to 1-2 tables, I was AIPF three times with AAWx vs. A2WL, and was quartered once, chopped twice. I had a middling stack of ~220k.

Folds around to me in SB w/ KQQT ds (hhdd). I limp and BB pots to 60k, I call. It could have even been the same flop as yours (except suit), but it was def. QJL hhx. We GII OTF and he had AAJ6 (no heart draw). The turn was whichever non-heart Ace was left in the deck.

That's how some of us run!

the whole table and the dealer did not realize you had a straight?

bad beat bro

I've had 4OAK beaten on multiple occasions in O8, including at the final table of a major tournament series. It never occurred to me that I might be being cheated (though to be fair, I only play LO8, not PLO8).

I seems to me that if someone were to try to cheat in this sort of game, they would do so in a much less dramatic hand.

4OAK?

Four of a kind (i.e. Quads)

chances are you did get cheated, it's a big thing to cheat people in Omaha home games. best advice is to NEVER play Omaha anywhere but a casino

I have plenty of stories of high stakes friends losing 6figs to a particular home game, and I warned them about playing there but they didn't listen to me

Doesn't sound at all like OP was cheated. 1 outers in this situation happen so im surprised OP its never happened to him.

And this doesn't look at all like the scenario hand someone is going to cheat. Would you really do a zomg 1 outer wow. Thanks for the $$$ nae luck


Nothing else in the story really stands out as probably been cheating going on either imo.

I agree 100%.
With all the greedy people out there and the advanced technical possibilities to cheat nowadays I would never play in a home game that big. Very stupid to buy in for 2k after you lost your first buy in.
It's also very suspicious that a pro dealer with experience at the wsop deals in everyhand players, who are sitting out. Every dealer knows in cash game get cards only players who are at the table.
Probably they were 2-3 players and the dealer working there and they shared the money
after the game.
Look for "poker cheating device" in YouTube and you 'll see how you lost your money there.
You want to be 100 % sure? Go again play another evening there and look exactly at the dealer, if he always cut the cards in the same position at the table and if always the same 2-3 players win and all the rest lose. After the game ask if you can have the cards you played with, not a new deck, exactly the deck you were playing with. The answer to this question will give you enough info. If they give you cards are clean, if they find excuses to not giving you the cards are rigged.

Don't see anything suspicious really. It's common for hands to be dealt in. Home games are exactly that - homey and personal where they know you and take individuals into account. For example, if I'm not at the table I'll always be back in a minute, so I get pissed if I don't get dealt in. As opposed to how it works in a casino.

I did see a cheating hand once in a home game. If someone says "deal me out", then they should always be dealt out. One time someone saw something suspicious with the deck and therefore asked to be dealt out, out of caution. The dealer refused, saying we'll just make it a dead hand (before it was dealt - ridiculous). Now this makes no sense. (And of course nothing like this happened in your game.) The hand ended up being AA vs. KK vs. QQ, with a flop of KQx, and A on the river.