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Old 05-07-2017, 04:05 PM   #1
tiger415
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Cold calling vs 3 betting pre (LO8)

Let's say the co opens a typical co range and I'm on the button with

A) akqj
B) a234
C) a25k
D) a3tq
E) tjqk
F) aa34
G) aa6j

Let's assume BB plays

1) 100%,
2) premium hands,
3) reasonably

What is my plan for the 21 different scenarios above?
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Old 05-07-2017, 04:55 PM   #2
Spreek
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Re: Cold calling vs 3 betting pre

What are suits? What are stack sizes? Is this PL,NL,FL? I'll answer for 100bb PL.

I would always 3bet F,G no matter what the BB tendencies. I would 3bet C,D with decent suits almost always.

A234 I would almost always cold call. KQJT/AKQJ are pretty speculative cold calls IMO. I only would do it when quite deep and/or vs weak passive players in blinds.
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Old 05-07-2017, 05:05 PM   #3
tiger415
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Re: Cold calling vs 3 betting pre

Sorry I was referring to fixed limit
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Old 05-07-2017, 05:18 PM   #4
tiger415
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Re: Cold calling vs 3 betting pre

I'm running equities on ppt and I basically reached a quick conclusion that it is not okay to cold call in this spot from an equity view point (BB has way more equity here than in lhe).

I guess this brings up another question from the BB's pov on the impact of playing oop and trying to win with hi-only hands.

Because the RIO seems high in this game, it might be okay to allow the BB in (he'll never be close to realize his h/c equity in a 3-way pot).

My hunch is the battle for the blinds is way more important here still and cold calling is just horrible still.

Last edited by tiger415; 05-07-2017 at 05:23 PM.
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Old 05-07-2017, 07:09 PM   #5
monikrazy
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Re: Cold calling vs 3 betting pre (LO8)

Not sure how much o8 literature you have read but you will hear a lot about pushing vs pulling hands with the key differentiation being odds of winning hi vs low. So the aa69 hand you posted in another thread would be something you push because it will be favored for hi equity vs any range but struggle for any piece multiway with almost no chance of hitting a lo.

Akqj and kqjt can both be folded, they are very situational and if opener is tight not likely to be worth it. Most of the other hands you posted were fairly premium and depending on flush potential would generally raise. I would not raise a234 most of the time unless there were bad/loose players in the pot/blinds.

Aa34 is a hand we can balance with and call sometimes as well since it is so strong and certain opponents will have a very hand reading us. So if unsure raise but this is a spot where we can exploit weaker opponents by calling. In a hi-stakes game it would be closer to an automatic raise.




More interesting type hands for your question imo
A48t
A59j
Kk74
Qq26
A994/a995
Etc

where its less clear whether you want the pot multiway or headsup
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Old 05-07-2017, 07:21 PM   #6
tiger415
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Re: Cold calling vs 3 betting pre (LO8)

So it seems like the strategy is to

3b a bunch of hands, and
Cold call another bucket of hands.

I understand low hands are pull hands,
And aa-rag are push hands.

The only issue I have with this push/pull strategy is whether it still applies in a situation that is likely to be heads up or 3 ways. I feel like contesting for the dead blinds is more important than allowing a 3rd player in.

However a hand like a234 does only have 48% equity heads up while 37%+ 3-ways, so I'm sure you're absolutely correct about the push/pull strategy.

A similar situation in lhe is with a hand like qjs. Most experts would say to 3b qjs even though qjs has 45% equity heads up and 36% equity 3-ways. How are the two situations different? Is qjs also a pull hand?

Last edited by tiger415; 05-07-2017 at 07:49 PM.
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Old 05-08-2017, 12:35 AM   #7
RolldUpTrips
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Re: Cold calling vs 3 betting pre (LO8)

Quote:
Originally Posted by tiger415 View Post
So it seems like the strategy is to

3b a bunch of hands, and
Cold call another bucket of hands.

I understand low hands are pull hands,
And aa-rag are push hands.

The only issue I have with this push/pull strategy is whether it still applies in a situation that is likely to be heads up or 3 ways. I feel like contesting for the dead blinds is more important than allowing a 3rd player in.

However a hand like a234 does only have 48% equity heads up while 37%+ 3-ways, so I'm sure you're absolutely correct about the push/pull strategy.

A similar situation in lhe is with a hand like qjs. Most experts would say to 3b qjs even though qjs has 45% equity heads up and 36% equity 3-ways. How are the two situations different? Is qjs also a pull hand?
To answer the last part:
To me the differences are range-balancing and fold equity. A 3b-or-fold strategy in this spot in LHE is very common and trying to make a balanced cold-calling range is very difficult, whereas in O8 cold-calling is much more common. Also in LHE the initiative is more important because of fewer showdowns and larger edges pre.
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Old 05-08-2017, 12:38 AM   #8
NickMPK
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Re: Cold calling vs 3 betting pre (LO8)

What are the suits here? Are we assuming all rainbow hands?
And I'm not sure I understand how you BB assumptions. Obviously he will not defend a to a 3-bet with the same range as he defends against a single raise, and the difference between these numbers is perhaps the most crucial consideration. So when you say he defends premiums, is this only defending premiums to a 3-bet, or only defending them to a single raise? FWIW I would definite "reasonable" defense as defense as defending almost everything to a single raise but much tighter (20%-30%) to a 3-bet.
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Old 05-08-2017, 03:13 AM   #9
tiger415
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Re: Cold calling vs 3 betting pre (LO8)

yeah I did not give a good description

What I mean is what do you do vs

1) a player who over defends vs a 2b, and
Underdefends vs a 3b

2) a player who over defends vs a 2b, and
Defends correctly vs a 3b

3) a player who over defends vs a 2b, and
Overdefends vs a 3b

4) a player who defends correctly vs a 2b...

9) a player who under defends vs a 2b...

I guess this is really complex and I'm wondering if there's some sort of techniques you guys use to simplify between cold calling and 3betting
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Old 05-08-2017, 07:34 AM   #10
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Re: Cold calling vs 3 betting pre (LO8)

I'm new to 08 the concept of flatting strong multiway hands is interesting. I also want to look at comparisons to holdem. Is the best way to figure out the best hands to call/3b pre is to play with different possible BB ranges in PPT for all the scenarios giving the opener a fixed opening range and checking how different hands we have play multiway as flats or 3bets. I've read Dan Deppens book. What book should i read that goes into push/pull strategies?

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Old 05-08-2017, 07:47 AM   #11
LUCIUS VARENUS
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Re: Cold calling vs 3 betting pre (LO8)

In spots where your attempt to pull is likely to only bring in the big blind, you might as well 3 bet. On the other hand, if the blinds are very loose and will call 2 or 3 bets cold, there is no benefit from trying to play position strongly and you're just ramping up variance. I suppose if they call with bad hands that's not a bad thing, but you're going to have to hit the flop and it might take a few swings and misses to get there, so it might be better to do it for cheaper.

I think pulling applies more to early positions and full ring games, where you might consider open limping if the field behind you would be more inclined to fold if you raised.

In 6max, those situations don't come up, and limping UTG for example will only bring maybe 1 or 2 other players not in the blinds into the hand. Full ring it's more. So you might as well raise and try to win position vs the blinds.

What is best to do depends on the table dynamic a lot more than your high quality starting hand, whatever its configuration. I think as well you have to consider how foldy the player you are 3 betting is postflop. High foldy=more 3 betty

Last edited by LUCIUS VARENUS; 05-08-2017 at 07:54 AM.
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Old 05-11-2017, 05:28 PM   #12
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Re: Cold calling vs 3 betting pre (LO8)

Is everyone in agreement that AKQJ and KQJT should be folded to a single raise on the button? I understand we don't know suitedness, but even so, I feel like these are very playable hands to a single raise.

I would not 3bet these hands as they are of the "pull" variety in my opinion. With either hand, we are looking for a high or highish flop to continue. If the flop comes something like 2-4-8 then it's very easy to get out cheap. Any two unmatched cards over 8 give us at minimum top pair and/or a substantial straight draw. For example, we hold KQJT and flop comes 9-T-3, we have top pair and are drawing to a 8, J, Q, K for nut straight and we are scooping most of the time when it hits. (Again, this is without accounting for flushes which of course would play into things) A highish flop like this puts incredible pressure on an opener like A24K who has to go runner runner for a low or some high combination that misses our draws.

Also, we have the button, right? So we have position on CO and the consensus still is to fold KQJT to one raise preflop?
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Old 05-11-2017, 11:06 PM   #13
doctorflush
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Re: Cold calling vs 3 betting pre (LO8)

So 3bet was 100% multi-way and call heads up
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Old 05-12-2017, 04:49 AM   #14
RolldUpTrips
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Re: Cold calling vs 3 betting pre (LO8)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bangarang413 View Post
Is everyone in agreement that AKQJ and KQJT should be folded to a single raise on the button? I understand we don't know suitedness, but even so, I feel like these are very playable hands to a single raise.

I would not 3bet these hands as they are of the "pull" variety in my opinion. With either hand, we are looking for a high or highish flop to continue. If the flop comes something like 2-4-8 then it's very easy to get out cheap. Any two unmatched cards over 8 give us at minimum top pair and/or a substantial straight draw. For example, we hold KQJT and flop comes 9-T-3, we have top pair and are drawing to a 8, J, Q, K for nut straight and we are scooping most of the time when it hits. (Again, this is without accounting for flushes which of course would play into things) A highish flop like this puts incredible pressure on an opener like A24K who has to go runner runner for a low or some high combination that misses our draws.

Also, we have the button, right? So we have position on CO and the consensus still is to fold KQJT to one raise preflop?
Agree 100% with all of this. It also balances our range since if we're only defining "pull" hands as wheely we will be very easy to read.
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Old 05-12-2017, 10:34 AM   #15
NickMPK
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Re: Cold calling vs 3 betting pre (LO8)

I would agree there should be some high hand you play in this spot, but I don't think KQJTr is good enough. KKJQds or AKQJ with a suited A, sure.
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Old 05-15-2017, 04:23 AM   #16
boc4life
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Re: Cold calling vs 3 betting pre (LO8)

If you're playing against aggressive opponents, I would say that it's reasonable to 3bet all of the hands you listed. I think that coldcalling from the button vs a CO open requires very specific circumstances in order to be correct. This is a very easy spot for intermediate players to begin to ramp up their aggression in order to compete in bigger games.
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