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[cash, micro, plo8] totally lost in the hand... [cash, micro, plo8] totally lost in the hand...

07-17-2018 , 04:51 AM
table: pretty lose preflop and passive after.
utg: borderline maniac, but doesn't bluff. (63 VPIP 37PFR and 25 3bet)
co: extreme nit eg. openlimps AK23 on the BTTN
SB: solid
BB: very loose passive, calls very light, especially on the river.

    Poker Stars, $0.02/$0.05 Pot Limit Omaha H/L Cash, 6 Players
    Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite. View Hand #37935083

    MP: $10.44 (208.8 bb)
    CO: $4.92 (98.4 bb)
    Hero (BTN): $10.01 (200.2 bb)
    SB: $15.89 (317.8 bb)
    BB: $4.43 (88.6 bb)
    UTG: $2.13 (42.6 bb)

    Preflop: Hero is BTN with 3 6 A 8
    UTG raises to $0.17, MP folds, CO calls $0.17, Hero calls $0.17, SB calls $0.15, BB calls $0.12
    Should I even play this hand? My thought was that suited A3 on the BTTN is nutted enough to be played in what will probably be a 4way pot. I don't really care about UTG, because he has plenty of high only hands and AK7x in his range. The CO however will often show up with premium hands, and 3betting is not going to get folds.

    Flop: ($0.85) 5 J A (5 players)
    SB checks, BB checks, UTG checks, CO checks, Hero bets $0.27, SB folds, BB calls $0.27, UTG folds, CO calls $0.27
    I really don't know where I am at or what to do. UTG checks, so its pretty likely he missed the flop (he would bet, if he got a decent piece, no matter how many players). CO always checks and BB always calls. I decide to make a small bet mostly to get some information. (I would also bet my A23w, 2346 and AJww small here, not that anyone payed attention...)

    Turn: ($1.66) 2 (3 players)
    BB checks, CO checks, Hero checks
    ?

    River: ($1.66) Q (3 players)
    BB checks, CO bets $0.80, Hero calls $0.80, BB folds
    Since BB can call with anything and CO looks a lot like Broadway (he also doesn't have a low on Ahigh boards very often), I call, not happy though.

    Spoiler:
    Results: $3.26 pot ($0.13 rake)
    Final Board: 5 J A 2 Q
    CO showed T K A 5 and won $1.57 ($0.33 net)
    Hero showed 3 6 A 8 and won $1.56 ($0.32 net)
    BB mucked and lost (-$0.44 net)



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    [cash, micro, plo8] totally lost in the hand... Quote
    07-17-2018 , 08:34 AM
    I'd check the flop. Barely any playable hands miss this board and you are definitely not pushing equity.

    I'd bet the turn, roughly half pot, intending to check down many rivers. You have an easy fold when raised.

    River is a call, because of where you are in your range.
    [cash, micro, plo8] totally lost in the hand... Quote
    07-17-2018 , 09:30 AM
    Problem with flop bet for information is that you didn’t get any (other than 3 players put money in pre with unplayable hands lol).

    Agree with amok - like a turn bet better than flop bet. PF and river are fine. Have to call with lows there against perceived CO range.
    [cash, micro, plo8] totally lost in the hand... Quote
    07-17-2018 , 05:31 PM
    General tip for the game is don't bluff ace high boards and don't bluff multiway pots

    Obv there is never an "always" but this advice applies here imo

    Check flop lets you use position to greatest effect

    Turn was one of the best for your hand and gives a good opportunity to take other players off half the pot so worth a bet as a semibluff when checked around

    Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk
    [cash, micro, plo8] totally lost in the hand... Quote
    07-17-2018 , 05:34 PM
    also, fold pre shouldn't be a consideration either. yeah a368 isn't great but you are playing position more than the cards (remember you often do not need to make a hand to win when you are last to act because you can bet after seeing weakness from checks) and double suited makes it all the more sweet.

    Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk
    [cash, micro, plo8] totally lost in the hand... Quote
    07-17-2018 , 08:22 PM
    Thanks everyone.

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by amok
    River is a call, because of where you are in your range.
    I tried to understand this comment and that somewhat cleared things up.
    Correct me, if I'm wrong (still not all that familiar with these concepts).

    Where am I in MY range:

    Top of my range = the very best hands. Those want to bet/raise for value, while occasionally trapping on earlier streets.

    Bottom of my range = the trash. Those want to (semi)bluff, if a (semi)bluff can work often enough, otherwise fold.

    Middle (?) of my range = all the "a bit of everything" hands, like this one. Those want to check back or call.

    Applying this to the hand in question:

    pre: I would place this hand at the middle of my range, so calling is the preferred action.

    flop: I would place this hand between middle and bottom. A bluff is pretty much never going to work, so checking is the preferred action.

    It is interesting, because I tried to come up with the worst hand, I can have (given my preflop tendencies and all), that I would bet on the flop. Since I usually don't bet this hand, I think it's AJBw or maybe A255.

    turn: I'm actually not sure, where to place this hand in MY range:
    1) the low is decent and often best, after it gets checked around.
    2) I'm blocking a 3, which makes it a bit less likely someone has a wheel
    3) I do have a gutshot to the superwheel.

    So, where am I? I guess I am somewhere between the Top and the Middle now.

    What I realized while thinking about this is:
    I almost never have a wheel on the turn, after checking the flop, because I would bet most of my 34 hands on the flop. (Only A34x - 2 and 3456 are left)

    I'm not credibly repping a wheel, because of the previous observation, but I am actually freerolling a good amount of better high hands and in my games there is also a good amount of worse lows that find calls. So, the turn can be bet for value, just like I'm betting J7 on 89T.

    river:
    Looking at toppair no kicker and second nut low, definately middle of my range, so I should call.

    It's so weird for me, to call, because of MY range.

    But thinking about the worst possible hands that I have at any given point in a hand is really interesting. It's easy to come up with the best possible hands, but the worst ones?

    So new task for next week: Place your hand in your range in any given situation xD.

    Thanks once more for the input.
    [cash, micro, plo8] totally lost in the hand... Quote
    07-17-2018 , 11:05 PM
    pretty much yeah you never have a wheel on the turn, so your range is what we would call capped.

    as such, a player who recognizes this will bet with much weaker holdings. or they will call you down more lightly. let's say you raised someone's river lead with your 36 low. a villain who can read you properly will think they're safe to just call your bet and feel comfortable you never have that wheel.
    [cash, micro, plo8] totally lost in the hand... Quote
    07-18-2018 , 03:17 AM
    Caterina, you are on the right track. I'd say that with the absolute bottom of your range you should be looking to c/f nearly always, you will find better bluffs from hands that have at least some equity when called. You also probably should not have any bluffs on the flop 5-way in a micro stakes game.

    I'm sure there are a lot of spots where you are at the top of your range (say 2nd nut low), but still need to fold because villain's range is too nutty. This is true especially in low limit games.
    [cash, micro, plo8] totally lost in the hand... Quote
    07-18-2018 , 06:01 AM
    About the capped range:

    I think, this is a huge issue for me on AsBs boards out of position.
    I play pretty tight UTG and MP, so when I'm opening I have much more ABBw type hands, then ABww or Awss and no ABws.
    So, when I hit top two on the flop, I will usually bet, but check the turn. I know at least one good opponent who regularly calls with trashy lows and takes the high away either on the turn or the river. This is especially painful, if I have the AAB2.
    And I'm actually check/folding top and bottom pair or worse, because I know, he will do it so often.
    => My check-range is capped on the turn, because I'm betting the hands that have a low along with my high.

    So what do I do to improve the situation?
    - Check some turns with AAww aswell?
    - Bet some turns with the ABBw?
    - Call more turns/rivers?

    @Amok: As I understand it, my range is relative to my opponents range, meaning:
    Against player A I will fold more hands and thus have a different continuation range than against player B. So against a nitty player, I'd say the 2nd nutlow is near the bottom of my range, while against a suprloose guy it is near the top.

    Yesterday I played this hand (also somewhat applying this idea)
    0.5/.10
    I have 100 BB, UTG has ~350BB and seems to be running all over the table.
    He opens UTG (pot), 4 fold, I call in the BB with Ad (QJ) 3.
    flop is A Kd Jd
    I check, UTG plays 80% pot.

    So this is a spot, where I'm often unsure, what to do. If I think about his range, then I'd say, his worst hand is toppair no kicker and his best hands are broadway with a flushdraw and sets. An average hand makes something like toppair + gutshot, toppair + flushdraw, etc...

    So, I started thinking about where I was in my range. Of all the hands that I def in the BB against an UTG open from what I percieve as a pretty strong preflop range. I would say that I flopped decently with top and bottom pair and the nutflushblocker. So I decide that my hand is too strong to fold on the flop and call.

    Turn is a Q.
    I check, UTG bets 80% pot

    The third nuts looks like a strong hand on paper, but my opponent keeps barreling, like he is smashing some monster. I have actually folded hands like these on the flop or turn in the past (probably a huge blunder).
    Looking only at my range however, I'm near the top.
    Since I don't raise the NFD as a semibluff, I'm only repping boats by raising, which makes it easy for him to getin with KK and AA and fold whatever else. So I call.

    River 7
    I check, UTG checks.
    He had AJ35 double suited, non of his suits have been in play. So he fired two times with toppair, a straightblocker and a gutshot.

    Once I call flop and turn, I probably have to call the river aswell, but I was glad, he didn't fire another one.

    It's also interesting to me, to figure out, what he was actually thinking. Seems to me, he was near the bottom of his range and decided to use the hand for bluffing.

    About bluffing. We have discussed this in the past and I have thought about it a little bit, I have the following rules:
    1) Don't bluff in pots with more than 3 players
    2) Don't bluff on early streets without sufficient 8+ outs.
    3) Don't bluff without representing a valuehand (I think, this is actually the most important one.)
    4) Don't bluff players that rarely fold.
    [cash, micro, plo8] totally lost in the hand... Quote
    07-19-2018 , 04:02 AM
    Call pre is normal, as is check fold the flop.

    On the turn it's normal to stab, as hero can often have the best low and fold out hands with a lot of hi equity.

    As played call on river looks fine, though I can find arguments for a raise.

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    [cash, micro, plo8] totally lost in the hand... Quote
    07-19-2018 , 07:15 PM
    Ok, I finally understood it
    Ideally, I want to have a range in any situation for any action, so that my opponents cannot take an advantage of me (the famous "balance").
    In order to accomplish this, I use certain hands for every action. Which ones are suited best can be estimated by their place in my range. If I do not have hands that can perform a certain action, then I need to change the hands I play and/or the way I play them.
    example: flop, out of position
    I want to have hands that bet, c/c, c/r and c/f.
    top = usually bet, sometimes c/r and rarely c/c
    middle = usually c/c, sometimes c/r or c/f
    bottom = c/f
    Some situations are so rare (eg. JJJJ board, 5bet before the flop,..) that they don't matter too much, but I can start by looking at the situations that I run into frequently.

    Feels like a revelation and was probably pretty obvious to everyone of you.
    Thanks!

    Can I bake you a cake or contribute something else in return? :]
    [cash, micro, plo8] totally lost in the hand... Quote

          
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