[Cash, Micro, PLO8] Seeking advice on flop and river play - Omaha 8 Poker Forum

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[Cash, Micro, PLO8] Seeking advice on flop and river play

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07-30-2018 , 06:24 AM

Caterina

journeyman

Join Date: May 2017 Posts: 227

Have only played 20 hands at this table. Villains are unknown to me.

I think, I make mistakes in this hand, that I do more often than not, but can't really see, where exactly.

Poker Stars, $0.02/$0.05 Pot Limit Omaha H/L Cash, 6 Players
Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite. View Hand #37935293

MP: $6.41 (128.2 bb)
CO: $6.76 (135.2 bb)
BTN: $9.34 (186.8 bb)
SB: $5 (100 bb)
Hero (BB): $6.09 (121.8 bb)
UTG: $8.35 (167 bb)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 5

3 folds, BTN calls $0.05, SB completes, Hero raises to $0.20, BTN calls $0.15, SB calls $0.15
Think this is fine.

Flop: ($0.60) 2

(3 players)
SB checks, Hero checks, BTN checks
Against unkowns I don't start fighting over paired boards. I expect to get called by every T, all overpairs and even a good amount of underpairs.
Looking at my range, this hand is pretty weak, but can pick up EQ on several turns, when called. Does this make it a cbet (assuming I had a betting range here, which I don't).

In general: I am check/calling all my 22, T and overpair type hands and check/folding the rest. I'm also never leading the turn after that. Probably super terrible.

Turn: ($0.60) 3

(3 players)
SB checks, Hero checks, BTN bets $0.58, SB folds, Hero calls $0.58
I think, this is fine. Mistake? (Majority of players in these games bet the pot or nothing).

River: ($1.76) 2

(2 players)
Hero checks, BTN bets $1.69, Hero calls $1.69
Without reads, did I call this too quickly? I thought I'm in the bluffcatch part of my range, when I called.

Spoiler:

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07-30-2018 , 09:31 AM

greybeard33

grinder

Join Date: Jul 2014 Posts: 523

I think pf/flop are fine. I think turn is ok but I fold here more often now because of lack of visibility on this board; realistically a 4 is the only card you feel great about on the river.

As for the river, villain really shouldn’t be bluffing here as 2s and overpairs are definitely in your range, so he should really only be betting a T. I don’t know if villain really knows that and could think betting overpairs himself is good so don’t fault you for calling.

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07-30-2018 , 12:15 PM

amok

veteran

Join Date: Sep 2004 Posts: 3,253

Quote:

Originally Posted by greybeard33

As for the river, villain really shouldn’t be bluffing here as 2s and overpairs are definitely in your range, so he should really only be betting a T. I don’t know if villain really knows that and could think betting overpairs himself is good so don’t fault you for calling.

Well, theoretically this can't be true (your betting range can never be 100% value bets), but I guess you mean how the game plays in practice. Anyway, theoretically I think you should be calling river with this hand, otherwise you are folding way too much. He should be betting most of his tens on the flop, you don't have that many tens in your (perceived) range, have more over pairs than A2 so you are close to the top of your range.

What is the weakest hand villain should be value betting in your opinion? Pretty sure at least A2 is a clear value, maybe even weaker deuces, which he doesn't have many though.

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07-30-2018 , 02:02 PM

kisada

old hand

Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,860

Quote:

Originally Posted by amok

I think you should be betting turn. You still have very strong hands in your range while they have very few. You have decent equity when called and when your bet gets through they fold a lot of equity.

Well, theoretically this can't be true (your betting range can never be 100% value bets), but I guess you mean how the game plays in practice. Anyway, theoretically I think you should be calling river with this hand, otherwise you are folding way too much. He should be betting most of his tens on the flop, you don't have that many tens in your (perceived) range, have more over pairs than A2 so you are close to the top of your range.

What is the weakest hand villain should be value betting in your opinion? Pretty sure at least A2 is a clear value, maybe even weaker deuces, which he doesn't have many though.

if we're betting the turn shouldn't that mean we have a mandatory 2-barrel on brick rivers as well?

i.e. the vast majority of hands that are calling the turn are in the same category as our hand here, i.e. a low draw or flush draw etc.

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07-30-2018 , 04:35 PM

Caterina

journeyman

Join Date: May 2017 Posts: 227

Quote:

Originally Posted by amok

Yes. Here I was thinking the turn is ok, but you are so right.
Betting also makes me see the river cheaper (I wouldn't pot) and in this particular case, villain is likely to raise for protection which saves me at least the riverbet. Looking at all hands I'd also finally get value for my own Ts.

So what would my turn bet range look like?
AT+ and bluffs (with equity) like this one? Still x/c the (playable) rest?

Last edited by Caterina; 07-30-2018 at 04:57 PM.

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07-30-2018 , 05:46 PM

amok

veteran

Join Date: Sep 2004 Posts: 3,253

Quote:

Originally Posted by kisada

Certainly. We are setting it up for a profitable river bluff.

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Originally Posted by Caterina

Yes. Check-call with hands stronger than this one.

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07-30-2018 , 07:32 PM

greybeard33

grinder

Join Date: Jul 2014 Posts: 523

Quote:

Originally Posted by amok

What is the weakest hand villain should be value betting in your opinion? Pretty sure at least A2 is a clear value, maybe even weaker deuces, which he doesn't have many though.

So if we bet weaker deuces, essentially we think overpairs would call here? Seems like a terrible board for value betting so I’m not sure I would have any value bets without a T. You are probably right about A2 especially at higher stakes but hard to imagine getting called by worse here with your weakest value bets. I don’t really think polarized value bet range is a thing but I guess mine is (monsters or bluffs). Actually I guess I don’t have any bluffs either if I don’t bet turn.

Folding decision probably clouded by my non-cash mindset so you’ve given me something to think about as I start playing more cash games and less SNG.

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07-31-2018 , 04:36 AM

amok

veteran

Join Date: Sep 2004 Posts: 3,253

Quote:

Originally Posted by greybeard33

So if we bet weaker deuces, essentially we think overpairs would call here?

By we you mean villain I think, just want to be clear. Yes, with this action (flop check-check, turn check-bet-call, river check-bet-?) I think Hero should be calling some overpairs, otherwise bluffs are just too profitable.

Quote:

Originally Posted by greybeard33

Seems like a terrible board for value betting so I’m not sure I would have any value bets without a T.

Quote:

Originally Posted by greybeard33

As for the river, villain really shouldn’t be bluffing here

I don't fully understand what you mean. It's not a terrible board for value betting and it's not a bad board for bluffing (you have implied it's both). It's just a matter of finding the right hands to do so.

Quote:

Originally Posted by greybeard33

I don’t really think polarized value bet range is a thing but I guess mine is (monsters or bluffs).

Polarized value bet range isn't a thing. Polarized range is a thing (monsters or bluffs). Value bet range means only the "value"-part of your betting range, but like I said earlier, theoretically there must always also be bluffs in your betting range.

Quote:

Originally Posted by greybeard33

Actually I guess I don’t have any bluffs either if I don’t bet turn.

This is easy to improve - your river value bets come from your best hands that you have checked twice (A2 on this board for example). Now that you have a value range you also have the ability to bluff.

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07-31-2018 , 02:20 PM

greybeard33

grinder

Join Date: Jul 2014 Posts: 523

Quote:

Originally Posted by amok

I guess the difference is you think V should be betting flop with a T like you said earlier but I still think his range is T-heavy after the turn bet. Just haven’t played enough cash and thinking in terms of this as a trapping hand in a tournament. Makes sense he should be betting flop IP.

Quote:

Originally Posted by amok

Shouldn’t we be raising river then if A2 is in our value range? As is obvious I am not a theory expert but our bluff-catching range can’t be the same as our value range right? (call with bluff-catching range, raise with our betting range as either value or bluff)

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08-01-2018 , 12:16 PM

#10

Caterina

journeyman

Join Date: May 2017 Posts: 227

Quote:

Originally Posted by greybeard33

As I understand it:
You said "I don't have any bluffs, when I don' t bet the turn" - while being the villain in this hand. Amok said: Take you strongest hands after checking twice, for example A2 and bet them for value, then you can also bluff.

If we look from heroe's perspective: After the action goes c/c, check/bet/call, A2 is either bluffcatch or value, depending, if villain bets overpairs or not.

If the action goes c/c bet/call, then I'd say A2 is value again and should be bet otr by hero.

In any case, you can't raise, when you are betting A2 for value, being the BTN in the hand, after the action goes c/c c/c c/?

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08-01-2018 , 12:59 PM

#11

amok

veteran

Join Date: Sep 2004 Posts: 3,253

Quote:

Originally Posted by greybeard33

If I understand your question correctly, the answer is no. Ranges for raising for value and betting for value are not the same. For example, we are IP and villain checks. We bet certain hands for value, but if villain bets, we call with many of those hands, since they are not strong enough to be profitably raised.

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08-01-2018 , 11:32 PM

#12

greybeard33

grinder

Join Date: Jul 2014 Posts: 523

Quote:

Originally Posted by Caterina

Right - was talking about A2 as the betting range for hero at the end of my last post. Where we can either:

1) bet for value or,
2) check/call villain's likely river bet.

Seems like option 2 turns our A2 into a bluffcatcher, so I didn't really get how A2 can be in both our value range and bluffcatching range, but I guess it's just because we've now adjusted our range in 2) due to villain's action.

Quote:

Originally Posted by amok

So if he bets OOP, we adjust our range and our betting range is now {top of range} for raises or {something else} for bluffs, and then we call with whatever is left over from our previous value betting range.

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