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[Cash, Micro, PLO8] Bluffing

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11-06-2017 , 01:05 PM

Caterina

journeyman

Join Date: May 2017 Posts: 227

Situation: Loose passive game, 3+ players to the flop frequently with little regard to preflop raising or even 3betting. Most players at the table seem to be new, trying Hi/Lo out.

The CO is a reg, who plays super aggressive, frequently raising and reraising. In over 1k hands, I have never seen him, bet less than the pot (both bluffs and valuebets)

Poker Stars, $0.01/$0.02 Pot Limit Omaha H/L Cash, 6 Players
Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite. View Hand #37865030

MP: $0.65 (32.5 bb)
CO: $4.08 (204 bb)
BTN: $1.53 (76.5 bb)
SB: $0.96 (48 bb)
BB: $1.16 (58 bb)
Hero (UTG): $2.04 (102 bb)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with Q

Hero calls $0.02, MP calls $0.02, CO raises to $0.06, BTN calls $0.06, SB calls $0.05, BB folds, Hero calls $0.04, MP calls $0.04

I don't want to fold my hand and I don't want to raise my hand. The former, because I percieve it as a decent hand, that can play big pots at this table. The latter, because raising will not make anybody fold and I'll have to fold on a ton of flops anyways.

CO sticks in his usual raise, but it's the first time, he raises less than the pot. I briefly consider 3betting, because I'm blocking Aces and am wondering, what he is raising with. This will likely result in a 3way all-in, so I stick to my original plan.

Anything wrong with this?

Flop: ($0.32) 5

(5 players)
SB checks, Hero checks, MP checks, CO bets $0.16, 2 folds, Hero raises to $0.79, 2 folds

I think, this is a "lockdown board", you either have A4 or you don't, so I plan to check/fold.

However, when the CO only bets half the pot, I think, he is sitting on some mediocre holding or missed completly. After all, MP will probably call with any piece of the flop.
So I decide to turn my hand into a bluff, since I'm blocking some of the A4 combos.

With the (although short) MP behind me and likely to call with pair+, it makes me think, if this wasn't a rather bad move.

Thoughts?

Spoiler:

Get the Flash Player to use the Hold'em Manager Replayer.

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11-06-2017 , 01:20 PM

LUCIUS VARENUS

Soldier of Minbet

Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 10,461

Fancy play syndome.

It's a multiway pot so you have to play ABC to a great extent. So fold.

Against one player, could be a good move, and you have some good reasoning.

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11-07-2017 , 12:08 AM

Galfondstyle

centurion

Join Date: Oct 2017 Posts: 103

Against so many players I would tend to play more straighforwardly.
And on that board without flush draws you should give your opponent credit, if he bets into so many opponents.

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11-07-2017 , 03:29 AM

amok

veteran

Join Date: Sep 2004 Posts: 3,265

It's not the worst play in the world, but still a sizable mistake. You should note that on a lockdown board even a half pot bet is kinda big, since there is no need for protection. I do not know if villain understands this or if the sizing really is a sign of weakness.

Anyway, I think your hand is not the best bluffing candidate, since your equity is so poor when called. You could easily come up with a lot of hands that have decent blockers and at least some equity vs the current nuts. So I think that if you bluff this hand, you are either overbluffing or choosing your bluffs poorly. Your sizing is way way too big too (no need for protection, remember).

Pre-flop is fine I think, if you have a strategy that involves open limping.

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11-07-2017 , 08:24 AM

Caterina

journeyman

Join Date: May 2017 Posts: 227

Thanks for the feedback

.

I should have mentioned, that I made my decision, after BTN and SB had already folded, so it's 3way.
Normally, I would give a player credit for betting into 4 people, but the CO doesn't really check behind flops. I expect him to bet his whole range here.
He also doesn't play tight, he just raises hands like A77Q and 3bets hands like (K4)(K8).

However, it is still bad play.

What I am gathering:

"Multiway": I have to force myself to bluff occassionally. I should focus on headsup pots, when looking for opportunities (at least for now).

"Bluffsize": I know that I'm not overbluffing and I know that I still miss lots of value especially on the river. People not folding, when I bet less than the pot (my experience) may be the case, because I chose my bluffspots poorly and do not valuebet smaller than 3/4 pot often enough.

"Having some equity": I got the impression, I should bluff with my worst hands. This is probably the right thing to do on the river, but not here. I'll think about hands, that might be better suited to bluff on this kind of board.

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11-07-2017 , 08:25 AM

monikrazy

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 28,055

Amok's response is excellent, and covers pretty much all the important points

I will add that mp's short stack size would make me less likely to bluff, and since even some of his marginal holdings have you crushed I dislike this line

Turning aa and other a hand hands into wheel bluffs is somewhat underdiscussed imo but this still does not seem like a spot where it is likely to be +ev

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11-07-2017 , 09:42 AM

amok

veteran

Join Date: Sep 2004 Posts: 3,265

Quote:

Originally Posted by Caterina

"Multiway": I have to force myself to bluff occassionally. I should focus on headsup pots, when looking for opportunities (at least for now).

Definitely this. In practice you might not need any bluffs in a low limit game multiway pots. In theory, you do.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Caterina

"Having some equity": I got the impression, I should bluff with my worst hands. This is probably the right thing to do on the river, but not here. I'll think about hands, that might be better suited to bluff on this kind of board.

You are absolutely correct, on the river you should bluff hands with poor showdown value and good blockers. On earlier streets you should bluff with hands that are not good enough to call a bet, but have some equity against villain's continuing range.

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11-08-2017 , 07:12 AM

ZockenRobot

enthusiast

Join Date: Mar 2017 Posts: 94

Pre is fine. Flop I think blocking a 4 is more crucial than blocking an ace actually. A4, while a crucial hand on this board, is not the nut high hand. No one is folding 46 here and you do not block it. I don't know what your UTG limping range looks like but do you have any 44 hands in it? If you never have 44 without an Ace or 6 then I guess this is one of your best bluffing hands but if you can have 44 I would stick to that as the bluffing hand rather than AA. You don't need a lot of bluff combos on this board.

I think it is an OK play though given your tell on CO and I'm glad it got through for you.

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11-08-2017 , 07:52 AM

Caterina

journeyman

Join Date: May 2017 Posts: 227

Quote:

Originally Posted by ZockenRobot

If you never have 44 without an Ace or 6 then I guess this is one of your best bluffing hands

Can't really think of a hand with 44 and without Ace, that I would openlimp UTG.
My limping range is rather strong compared to what other people at this stake limp with, I think.
I change it a lot depending on table dynamics (at tight tables, I don't openlimp, at loose tables, I openlimp almost all of the "hit or miss" hands from the early positions.)
You gave me another interesting view on bluffing. Haven't really thought of what hands to use in the context of all the hands that I am playing.

However, I found myself praying that MP player would fold, after making the play, which was a strong sign that I chose a bad spot. Much like monik pointed out, MP is way too likely to call with very marginal holdings to make this a good move.
I think, I'm getting carried away in multiway pots pretty often, where I'm trying to fight a player that I percieve as "stealing too often" and disregard additional players in the pot.

This thread has had an really interesting effect on my overall play. Obviously I'm taking more factors into account, when evaluating a situation for bluffability, but it also has made me raise (smallish) for value much more often.

Last edited by Caterina; 11-08-2017 at 08:03 AM.

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11-09-2017 , 12:56 AM

#10

LUCIUS VARENUS

Soldier of Minbet

Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 10,461

If you're looking to pick spots to ever bluff multiway, there's really only two situations where it will work out well for you.

1) it's a semi bluff with 8+ outs
or
2) when you are to the immediate left of someone who is betting and you can put that person and another person acting immediately behind you hands, one of which you can't beat

for example on the river player 1 bets, you either know you can't beat their hand (but you can win half the pot or raise to make them fold if you think their hand isn't strong enough to call) or you can beat that hand but the other person yet to act is beating you (but doesnt have a good enough hand to call a raise or overcall), then that's a good spot to bluffraise.

option 2 can work even with a lot of players in, when the players in the early positions have checked and showed weakness across multiple streets, but this situation comes up very rarely. A similar bluff was successfully executed on High Stakes Poker by Tom Dwan with QT on a T22 flop against Barry Greenstein (who had Aces) and Peter Eastgate (who had trip 2s).

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11-09-2017 , 12:35 PM

#11

Caterina

journeyman

Join Date: May 2017 Posts: 227

Thanks Lucius. I'll keep it in mind. For now, I focus my bluff efforts on headsup situations, until I feel a little more comfortable.

I was trying out a higher stake and wondered, if this is a hand, where bluff(?) raising the turn would be a good play.

Situation: The players seem to be solid, maybe a bit on the lose side of things. I noticed, they check behind a lot more than the players, I am used to. Since this limit is higher than I normally play, I am a little timid and play tighter and weaker than usual. I think, I established a nitty table image.

Poker Stars, $0.10/$0.25 Pot Limit Omaha H/L Cash, 5 Players
Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite. View Hand #37867390

BB: $13.58 (54.3 bb)
MP: $37.58 (150.3 bb)
Hero (CO): $32.17 (128.7 bb)
BTN: $24.88 (99.5 bb)
SB: $23.61 (94.4 bb)

Preflop: Hero is CO with A

MP folds, Hero raises to $0.62, 2 folds, BB calls $0.37

Not a monster, but certainly very playable from the CO. I make my standard raise.

Flop: ($1.34) 5

(2 players)
BB checks, Hero checks

I'm debating cbetting here, but then I would hate to get raised. I think, I have enough to bet/call, but prefer to see the turn for free.

Turn: ($1.34) T

(2 players)
BB bets $0.64, Hero calls $0.64

I picked up (blocked) spades and my hand is certainly strong enough to call this bet.
And while I should use hands for bluffing that aren't strong enough to call a bet, I was wondering, if raising might be the better action here regardless.
If my opponent has a straight, I still have good equity and if I can make him fold a two pair type hand or something, that's also great.

River: ($2.62) 3

(2 players)
BB checks, Hero checks

Checking behind the river seems pretty bad in hindsight. Is there a good reason, I shouldn't bet at least something around 3/4 pot here?

Spoiler:

Get the Flash Player to use the Hold'em Manager Replayer.

Last edited by Caterina; 11-09-2017 at 12:51 PM.

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11-09-2017 , 01:42 PM

#12

amok

veteran

Join Date: Sep 2004 Posts: 3,265

I think checking the flop is a rather significant mistake. Just think how much equity you can force out and like you note, you can easily call a raise.

I don't think raising the turn is brilliant with a hand that has so many nut outs.

Checking the river again a clear mistake. While he does have you quartered some % of the time, you just shouldn't let him show his one pairs down so cheaply. With his actual hand I'm pretty sure he was calling anyway.

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11-09-2017 , 01:50 PM

#13

LUCIUS VARENUS

Soldier of Minbet

Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 10,461

Quote:

Originally Posted by Caterina

: 2

: 6

: 4

:
MP folds, Hero raises to $0.62, 2 folds, BB calls $0.37

Not a monster, but certainly very playable from the CO. I make my standard raise.

Flop: ($1.34) 5

: 8

: 9

(2 players)
BB checks, Hero checks

I'm debating cbetting here, but then I would hate to get raised. I think, I have enough to bet/call, but prefer to see the turn for free.

Turn: ($1.34) T

: (2 players)
BB bets $0.64, Hero calls $0.64

I picked up (blocked) spades and my hand is certainly strong enough to call this bet.
And while I should use hands for bluffing that aren't strong enough to call a bet, I was wondering, if raising might be the better action here regardless.
If my opponent has a straight, I still have good equity and if I can make him fold a two pair type hand or something, that's also great.

River: ($2.62) 3

: (2 players)
BB checks, Hero checks

Checking behind the river seems pretty bad in hindsight. Is there a good reason, I shouldn't bet at least something around 3/4 pot here?

Spoiler:

Get the Flash Player to use the Hold'em Manager Replayer.

Yeah that's a safe spot to bet 75% or more

Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk

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11-09-2017 , 10:15 PM

#14

ZockenRobot

enthusiast

Join Date: Mar 2017 Posts: 94

Quote:

Originally Posted by amok

I don't think raising the turn is brilliant with a hand that has so many nut outs.

Wouldn't we be more likely to raise the more outs we have?

Also I'm not sure we can bet/call the flop? We have a very weak high hand. I would probably bet/fold.

Definitely bomb the river. I'm not sure he's calling with that hand and he's definitely not calling his whole range. I think we are rarely quartered as he would probably bet himself with A2.

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11-10-2017 , 02:44 AM

#15

amok

veteran

Join Date: Sep 2004 Posts: 3,265

Quote:

Originally Posted by ZockenRobot

Wouldn't we be more likely to raise the more outs we have?

Well, not really imo. Maybe you could word it like "the more equity we have against villain's continuing range" but even that slightly misses the target. Anyway, I wouldn't start bloating the pot with this hand OTT, as it plays very well as a call. We have a hand that has the ability to raise some rivers and sometimes get a lot money in with 100%/75% equity.

edit: so I would be a bit careful raising with a draw when we have zero blockers to the current nut high and a hand that is drawing to the nuts (=good implied odds). Anyway I don't think raising this hand is bad per se, good things can happen on the river nevertheless.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ZockenRobot

Also I'm not sure we can bet/call the flop? We have a very weak high hand. I would probably bet/fold.

True, depends a bit on how the game plays. Bet/folding this hand seems bit of a waste to me (good backdoors), so if I think there is no way to profitably continue against a raise, I'd play like Hero did and check back.

Last edited by amok; 11-10-2017 at 03:05 AM.

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11-10-2017 , 08:19 AM

#16

Caterina

journeyman

Join Date: May 2017 Posts: 227

Thanks for the question and the answer.

In the 0.01/0.02 games, there is basically two types of players. No.1 will only raise this flop with sets+, and no.2 will routinely raise with the nutlowdraw, wraps and overpairs.
Against Player no. 1: I got myself too often in the spot, where I was bet/calling, only to give up on the turn, so I started checking back with backdoor draws.

It's probably a good thing against player no.1 but not generally.

Now I'm wondering, if we had A2K5 (no flushdraws), should this be played as bet/fold against the afformentioned raising range?

What type of hands should the BB actually raise the flop with?
I just realized, I'd pretty much only raise with A267, which seems silly.

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