We are in the bb with 3 Big Bets behind and KK48 rainbow.

A similarly shortstacked TAG raises from the middle position. Another TAG calls from the button.

Hero?

As they say, "You pick the hand or it picks you" when you are that short stacked. I push pre flop and hope for no Ace and at least 2 high cards come on the flop.

Any ICM consideration, rebuy still allowed?

Unless there is strong ICM value, shove and pray.

No ICM considerations and no rebuys allowed.

When you say "shove" do you mean try to get as many bets in preflop as possible? What's the advantage in doing so vs seeing the flop for one raise and possibly folding? Neither of the villains was folding preflop and we may already be behind pocket AA or drawing near dead on ace high flops. Also won't be any chips left to possibly bluff somebody on broaway boards where KK is the nut blocker.

When I'm that short, I like to get it in if I can still re-enter, I'd go with the KKxx. If it's after registration is closed, then I would see the flop as cheap as possible with ability to fold. Maybe too aggressive, but if I'm able to rebuy, then tend to push the action, either chip up or rebuy.

If you just call you have 2 1/2 bigs left. Who do you think you are bluffing out at that point? Would rather 3 bet pre and try to hit the flop.

Hero does not have an equity advantage vs these ranges but benefits from lower spr and the pressure of multiple bets on the flop (if 3! flatted). So its not a slam dunk but i think raise.

If we had one big blind behind, it would be an easy call all in. If we had two, it would be an easy 3bet all in.

We have a bit more. Given the stack sizes involved, we will almost always be able to get it in post-flop. So, flatting preflop allows us to save a couple of bets on flops we hate, but doesn't change much on flops we like (or at least don't hate). It might give us some mild fold equity against the caller when we lead the flop and the opener raises with his short stack, causing him to fold when he only has ace-high with backdoor draws.

So, basically, I like calling unless 3betting commits us to getting it in on any flop. I might even like folding more than 3betting.

Didn't think so many would say that raising is the way to go. Can somebody explain what it would accomplish? Both villains have shown strength, so nobody is folding. So we're raising for value then? KK48o is not a strong hand especially oop and against two players. Raising only commits us to this pot, especially if the other short stack reraises.

Imo it's either a call or a fold, never a raise.

I think people who want to raise tend to have an eff it let's gamble mentality. They prefer a quick death to a slow one.

I've noticed that a lot of players don't understand short-stacked play in fixed limit tournaments and push too hard when they still have 3-5 big bets left. You can still wait multiple orbits.

Well, several things to consider.

TAGS in O8 ate usually playing AAxx or A23/4x type hands. Low hand is easier to predict, so I'd guess most are chaser nut lo draws. If so, then you probably have 2 aces out which makes it less likely an ace is on the board. It is def possible one has AA, but you've only a couple chips behind. If a rebuy is an option, why wait for something else? You're not bluffing someone off with the couple of chips you have left.

To play it out some, if no ace hits the flip, what do you do? Bet the flop, basically, you're almost pot committed if you call the pfr, in my opinion. I don't see the value in milking a couple of chips for AA23 kind of hand.

TAGs, noobs, weaker player will pretty much be aggressive with nut lo hands, even though there is no guarantee it is paid. Worst case scenario here, the next hand you're sitting with a full stack from a rebuy.

The argument for raising is this hand is better to play fast because of how badly it plays out of position and hand is too strong to fold. I also think there is an argument that hero caps his range by calling so raising increases the chance of a villain making a mistake. Even though its not likely, btn may also fold for 2 more bets.

There is certainly an argument for calling, but its still a very subjective decision and would at minimum require hero to have a really high skill level to be confident in maximizing postflop ev.

Truthfully decision is close enough that it should not matter all that much whether to call or raise (it seems really hard to argue for fold without bubble or pay ladder considerations), its more philosophy driven.

I don't think this hand is too good to fold.

My bad, didnt see there was no rebuy.....

With no rebuy there, probably fold to the TAGs preflop. I'm not sure how I kissed that part.....

with 1 hr levels and limit, I would fold unless close to next level

how hard would you have to hit it to call a continuation bet? crappy low cards, no flush and little straight possibility - even getting half with 3 players would be a stretch.


unless you feel you could check raise them off with a disjointed flop...

I am not sure I would be happy leaving tournament on that hand.

You could absolutely bluff people off their paired ace on these types of boards: A2QQJ, ATJ55, AJQT6. A lot of times scary flops like these get checked through. The odds of a successful bluff increase if we don't three-bet preflop and keep the pot as small as possible, therefore denying the villains good pot odds for a call on the turn or river.

Really?

Hero has >29% equity vs 2 top 10% hands, not to mention has to post the sb next hand.

Conceptually i would love to find a way to justify a fold but no matter how i look at it seems awful.

I don't know much about short stack tournament strategy, but I would probably fold this in a cash game, and others are saying you should be choosier in a tournament.

It's 29% if we're not going against the aces. Also, if we agree this hand is 29% to win the high, then it's about 15% to scoop. It's definitely not a premium hand.

Ran another sim and its closer to 28% than 29% vs 2 top 10%, though i could inprove it by tweaking the ranges.

There is a stronger argument for folding this hand cash or deeper stacks, though most players would defend.

Against very tight ranges 3! Gets less attractive but other shorty should open wider than 10% and btn should 3! His premiums to iso.

Guys 3 big bets left is plenty. Call and see the flop. This isn’t pot limit. There is only one play. Call and see what happens on the flop.

If you call and check fold you have 2.5BB, whereas you could have 2.75 BB if you fold and get a better hand in the rest of the orbit and double that so it's usually going to be a choice of 5 BB vs 5.5BB if you call pre here vs if you fold. Factor in that a high percentage of the time it will be a check/fold on the flop if you call. Where you do continue it will always be dicey. So IMO this is a speculative call. I think best not to be speculative when shortstacked unless on a high percentage bluff (works way more in NLHE). This can never be a high percentage bluff as a raise and get in postflop.

As you said, 3 big bets is plenty.

I can only conclude: Fold>Raise>Call

You can argue for fold sure. You cannot argue for raise. It’s simply terrible.

Not that DeathDonkey needs any support from me but he's obviously correct. It's definitely a call. Folding would be wrong and raising would be insane.