5/5
8 handed
500 eff

UTG limps, UTG+1(whale) raises to 20, I(HJ) raise to 75 with A4A4K, UTG+1 calls.

(165)
762
UTG+1 pots...

He limps a ton but doesn't raise very often, so his range is quite strong here. He's always strong when he bets pot, he bets less with his medium stenght hands.

I think he has a ton of A3, can I fold my hand on the flop ?

blocking A4 makes me think it's even more likely he holds A3xxx.

I think this problem can be solved by propokertools. If you have enough equity to continue against A3, I'd call. But you need to realize it's not enough to have 33%, you need to have enough to be able to call an all-in on the flop.

If I know for sure he has A3, I should fold because I have only 40% against A3, I was hoping he might have some A22 or A27.

It's close anyway, not that interesting

I ran a quick sim and stacking off should be fine. If villain has only a3 its close to breakeven, so tighter folds for bankroll considerations can be feasible. If villain has other hands its clear stackoff.

Note that if we discount premium a3 call is more clear, as maybe villain sometime bets less or checks with better.

Hero is about 43% vs a3.

I’d stack off here. If he doesn’t have A3 you are in good shape and if he does it isn’t awful.

I thought the idea in PL/NL Omaha8 is not to get freerolled, or to put in a ton to win a little.

Here you would be putting in $425 to win $82.50...and if the Villian has a monster like A3477 then you're in a heap of trouble. If the V is competent, he isn't potting with less than A3 plus other draws/counterfeit protection.

I started a post earlier "flop quandry" and the overwhelming opinion was my limping, rather than raising, preflop. This hand, for example, is the reason I haven't as much as might be recommended...it's a fairly easy call for $40ish if you don't raise preflop. Instead, you're basically committing your stack on a hand that could well be crushed.

BHDonkey... sigh

I know what you're thinking...BUT, as people said before, you have to be OK with folding after raising preflop.

I think this a pretty clear cut situation where you need to fold the flop, especially if the villian is decent. If you do play, you may as well ship it here...and you are then playing the old "shove and pray" form of Omaha, which is entertaining, but not profitable in the long run.

Also, IMHO, having played 5,6,7 and 8 card Omaha (with lows varying from 8-6) for years at fairly decent stakes (5-10 blinds, 500 buyin), the starting hand isn't that good unless you're fairly short stacked...lacking a 2 or 3 is killer.

there is a universe of difference from having nut flush draw and 2nd nut low draw and aces HU vs the scenario you posted in your own thread

You want to get 3/4 or scoop in PLO8 variants. Especially heads up.

Unless the vilian here is a spew monkey, there is almost no card except the remaining threes that will get you there.

Neither hand is particularly strong, but at least in my case I'm playing against completely unpredictable and crazy players!

yeah we are definitely not playing the same game at this point

BH it doesn't seem like you are familiar with some of the standard omaha analysis tools. Aak44ds is absolutely a strong, profitable hand pre-flop and enough to stack off on this flop. Note that even against a3 hands we still have scoop potential.

Against a377 hero is still 38.5%, which while not ideal, is still quite a lot considering hero put in 15% of his stack in pre-flop. So even if hero runs into the top of villain range, calling will be a smallish mistake.

It villain does not have a3, hero fold is torching money. Villain might have a hand like a225k for example, and hero is a 62% favorite.

You are right about the numbers...although you are using four card, not five card Omaha...the extra 4 and king are fairly worthless post flop. Even preflop I'm not sure how much those help aside from suited 4...I'd much rather have a 2 and 3, or bigger pair.

But do you really want to stack off 100bb when you're, on average, at best 50%? And that's being generous as the OP is fairly certain V has A3xxx.

Also, and this was not mentioned in my OP, one of the most powerful moves in PLO8 is the pot sized river bet when you only have half and a scare card comes...it could be a deuce to screw the low, or a pair on a flush board. I've been able to scoop many pots by delaying my betting to the river and having others fold (of course sometimes it backfires and they have nut/nut). When you three bet preflop, you've basically eliminated that option. All the money is going in on the flop or turn with these medium sized stacks.

You are right, BHDonkey, none of us just never thought of what you just said. Equity doesn't matter much, just whoever gets the first chance to spew the money in post-flop wins in this game, because then the other guy has to fold.

In reality, that is the way most weaker players think and play. If you understand what equity even is, you start to improve and stop talking nonsense. Pretty sure you are trolling though and doing a nice job at it. Kudos.

whatever the case it is...

i'd say this and the other thread are fantastic examples of how players used to think (or start thinking about the games after they first begin playing), versus how they should be thinking at a higher level.

equities and ranges dictate everything. for anyone who is learning or trying to figure out why they can't make it to the next level, i'd say to read all the replies from both threads, take the big picture bullet points, and reverse engineer from there.

He has some points though. Position is king. Raw equity doesn’t explain the entire picture in weak games. Denying equity and forcing mistakes is just as important.

And it’s live poker, right? It’s a soft game where a player can make amazing decisions based off more than just raw equity. Sometimes all it takes is layman thinking. You 3bet pre. Everyone knows you have aces+. And then a normally passive whale donks into you for pot / wants to play for stacks on a board that should smash you. He has A3 and a strong redraw 99% of the time.

i'll just say that shifting away from the thought process of too easily assigning the nuts or super strong draws to my opponents is probably one of the most important changes i've made in my poker career.

think about ranges, not monsters. yes if you can determine something so specific in a vacuum, there is nothing wrong with making an exploitative adjustment. that's obviously a huge part of poker.

but otherwise some of these statements are just wrong or insidiously bad for any thought process in poker.

Big o is relatively new and unexplored. It’s kind of like how no limit was back in the day. And it’s live poker. Nobody plays balanced. Nobody plays particularly well. Heavily weighting ranges is a necessity and quite easy to do for live games. Passive fish opens pre, calls a 3bet, then leads pot for stacks. Does is really matter what game it is this point?

I wrote a long response dissecting all the nonsense by BHDonkey and Draw2pat, but I began to have second thoughts and I'm not going to post it. You've already been given everything you need to have in order to understand the issue.

What do you mean by AA+?

Anyway, it's a stupid assessment in big O.

I think my hand plays better HU against my opponent range than multiway but calling preflop is fine too.

Postflop is a close spot. These are the spots we talk about the most but are EV=0 at the end.

Thanks to all of you guys for your answers

Your 3b range is faceup. I explained my reasoning for why live reads are real in soft games where nobody plays well (balanced) and how important it is in navigating close spots. The most you do is call my assessment stupid without adding anything significant to the conversation. Ok. If you’re not open for discussion then why post at all? Just text a buddy who’s afraid to hurt your feelings or run pro poker tools using fictitious ranges.

Consider the possibility that OP is such a strong player that his 3b-range is not faceup. Mind blown?

Yes. He’s such a strong player he has to ask what an utg range is and other simple pre flop questions. Along with missing value in pretty obvious spots.

In general, I think he asks good questions that for me seem worth answering.

I have no idea what you mean by "he has to ask what an utg range is" or what the other simple pre flop questions are. He didn't ask anything like that nor should he. How anyone on this forum could answer a question like that is beyond me.

Also, what are the obvious spots he is missing value in? I can name some where you and BHDonkey (assuming you are different persons) are missing value.