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Old 01-22-2016, 12:45 AM   #101
broken_jia
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Re: Andrew Barber's well

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I have to be the bearer of bad news, but I think that NLO8 incentivizes such nitty play that I don't think the game has a future. I'm shocked that it has grown in popularity. I recall reading about someone who was making money playing 8/4! pre-BF. I'm sure that wouldn't be profitable anymore, but the idea still holds. For this reason, I think sticking to PLO8 is probably best, especially since it has a pretty big following. At one point, the largest non-HE event ever held was PLO8.
I'm saddened to hear that your view is how someone viewed NLO8 pre-BF. A lot has happened in the last 3-4 years and the online O8 action has drastically shifted in favor of NLO8, especially on Pokerstars.

There are 6-max NLO8 hyper SNGs that regularly run (usually up to $30) and are the most popular non-holdem SNGs on Pokerstars.

I feel that NLO8 is more suited for a faster structure (i.e. a turbo event at a WSOP). If the $1500 PLO8 was potentially turned into a $1k NLO8 turbo event, I feel that it could rival the bolded statement you made above.

Not sure where you stand on having an NLO8 event at the WSOP anytime soon. Is this something you could support and potentially talk to the WSOP about?
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Old 01-22-2016, 11:39 AM   #102
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Re: Andrew Barber's well

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Additionally, I think about clean/dirty outs and re-evaluating equity based on action more than anyone else I've ever met, and this is almost untouched in the split-pot literature/videos.
Sorry.. Im an idiot. WTH are clean/dirty outs? Sounds racist.

And can you elaborate a little or a lot (to whatever degree you feel comfortable).

Thanks a lot for doing this!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Old 01-22-2016, 12:04 PM   #103
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Re: Andrew Barber's well

To take up the earlier discussion once more, variance is a function of edges and number of hands played. Now, I concede that full-ring should be lower variance, but I also believe that shorthanded FLO8 is less swingy than every other game because you're effectively playing 2 hands every hand, allowing you to reach the long run more quickly. Furthermore, good players should get half of more pots than weaker players. I'd love to ask FLO8 players their worst downswings because I certainly never saw anything in the same realm as what I have heard in the other poker realms.
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Old 01-22-2016, 02:25 PM   #104
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Re: Andrew Barber's well

newb question. sorry. i figured it out i think. proceed
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Old 01-22-2016, 02:32 PM   #105
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Re: Andrew Barber's well

OK... Are there any key questions that you find people are not asking themselves routinely regarding dirty/clean outs while playing a hand?


Thanks!
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Old 01-22-2016, 04:10 PM   #106
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Re: Andrew Barber's well

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OK... Are there any key questions that you find people are not asking themselves routinely regarding dirty/clean outs while playing a hand?


Thanks!
People don't discount obvious outs nearly as much as they should be, but more importantly, people don't realize how clean they are drawing on draws that are less obvious. Furthermore, scoop outs are not seen as more important, despite being twice as valuable.
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Old 01-22-2016, 06:43 PM   #107
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Re: Andrew Barber's well

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I'd love to ask FLO8 players their worst downswings because I certainly never saw anything in the same realm as what I have heard in the other poker realms.
Well in a 2 day span I think I lost about 350 big bets. Which was brutal, and probably my biggest, and has to be up there (among winning O8 players). All 2-6 handed.
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People don't discount obvious outs nearly as much as they should be,
I'm not sure if it's your wording, but what exactly do you mean "discount obvious outs"? Discounting obvious dirty outs?
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but more importantly, people don't realize how clean they are drawing on draws that are less obvious.
And is this referring to things like some high straight draws? Where other people aren't as likely to have those cards, and also are likely to have eachother's low outs if in a multiway pot?
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Old 01-23-2016, 05:03 PM   #108
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Re: Andrew Barber's well

Not sure how to quantify this mathematically, but feel like the bigger the pot is up through the turn, the river is more likely to be an offsuit 9... so when 4 nits are capping a 1053 rainbow flop and Abarber is coldcalling all bets with KQJ10 and scooping Q 9 run outs... he's really playing expert and nits capping A246 are spewing bec. they are sharing each others outs.. and will just chop a small win if hey get there and Abarber wins huge action pot when he holds. with added EV of rec. players thinking he is action player...

Last edited by deadpeddler; 01-23-2016 at 05:11 PM.
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Old 01-23-2016, 06:38 PM   #109
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Re: Andrew Barber's well

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Not sure how to quantify this mathematically, but feel like the bigger the pot is up through the turn, the river is more likely to be an offsuit 9... so when 4 nits are capping a 1053 rainbow flop and Abarber is coldcalling all bets with KQJ10 and scooping Q 9 run outs... he's really playing expert and nits capping A246 are spewing bec. they are sharing each others outs.. and will just chop a small win if hey get there and Abarber wins huge action pot when he holds. with added EV of rec. players thinking he is action player...
Don't know if I could've said it better myself.
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Old 01-23-2016, 11:12 PM   #110
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Re: Andrew Barber's well

We are still going to have so many turn auto-folds though, when getting massively freerolled and/or also behind already for the high anyway.

I understand the principle, but like in your example the calling 4 bets 4 way with KQJ10 on 1035 is a bit extreme.
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Old 01-23-2016, 11:29 PM   #111
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Re: Andrew Barber's well

I don't think people are going to like it, but at a certain point, we like our hand more the more bets that go in.
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Old 01-24-2016, 02:20 PM   #112
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Re: Andrew Barber's well

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We are still going to have so many turn auto-folds though, when getting massively freerolled and/or also behind already for the high anyway.

I understand the principle, but like in your example the calling 4 bets 4 way with KQJ10 on 1035 is a bit extreme.
I think that is kind of the point. We know what outs we are drawing to so I don't think the turn is going to be hard to play.

If it is 3 way for example we are going to have likely 40%+ equity on any K,Q,J,T,9 turn. If our opponents are recs this is likely to be printing money.

Agree calling 4 bets seems extreme though.
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Old 01-27-2016, 06:03 PM   #113
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Re: Andrew Barber's well

ignore if it is way too general....

any advice to people grinding micro mixed game tournies?

Thanks you for this.
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Old 01-28-2016, 01:40 PM   #114
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Re: Andrew Barber's well

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ignore if it is way too general....

any advice to people grinding micro mixed game tournies?

Thanks you for this.
Playing ABC will get you REALLY far in mixed game tournaments. I had great results well before I truly understood the intricacies of all the games. People are calling 4th in Razz when they shouldn't. People are not folding split J's in Stud8 when they should. People are betting when they are being free rolled in O8. Mixed games are alive and well.
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Old 01-28-2016, 11:05 PM   #115
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Re: Andrew Barber's well

Do you play big-o at all, if so what do you think of the game? Think we used to play together quite a bit, good to see someone doing this again I used to enjoy reading them. Good luck at the series. I took last year off after about 10 years in a row it was a nice break debating on going back.
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Old 01-29-2016, 01:46 AM   #116
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Re: Andrew Barber's well

Andrew, thank you for doing this well.

There's a thread in this forum about the best book on Omaha high-low. The consensus seems to be (in no particular order) Ray Zee's book on split-pot games, the chapter in Super System 2 written by Bobby Baldwin and Mark Gregorich, and the section on limit Omaha high-low in Jeff Hwang's book on PLO. Do you agree and would you add anything to this list?

What do you think of Steve Badger's online articles about Omaha high-low (Introduction and Myths)?

Annie Duke, I believe, once wrote that 3456 is the most overrated starting hand in Omaha high-low. Do you agree? What other hands are overrated or underrated, in your view?

You mentioned you like playing big cards like KQJT. What about three wheel cards without an Ace (234x, 235x, 245x, 345x)? I've noticed that when I make a wheel with these cards, I tend to scoop, whereas when I make a wheel with A2xx, I'm often getting quartered and am lucky to win half.

What do you think of Edward Hutchison's point count system for Omaha high-low?

What's the biggest mistake you see recreational players make in Omaha high-low?

I play in extremely loose games in which preflop raisers get teased mercilessly (and sometimes berated). Some nits seem to believe that there's no benefit to raising preflop, and they get angry when they perceive others as simply burning their chips. Of course, all the books and strategy articles I've read disagree with that view. However, it does seem to be the case that with 7 or 8 players seeing the flop, a starting hand like AAKJ double-suited or A246 double-suited often ends up with nothing. With so many players seeing the flop, do you tend to raise preflop more or less or perhaps with different hand textures than you would in a tournament, say, where no more than 3 or 4 players are seeing each flop?

You mentioned Bay 101. I sometimes play there, though usually at the Oaks. Do you know of any Stud high-low games or O/E games in the Bay Area? And will Bay 101 ever host a HORSE tournament?

Thanks again.
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Old 01-29-2016, 02:28 AM   #117
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Re: Andrew Barber's well

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We had exchanged words throughout the FT, but when we were down to 4 or 5-handed play, It folded to the SB (Jared), who asked me how many chips I had. I was the CL at this point, and we are playing FIXED LIMIT, so it made no sense to ask, especially if I cover. I said "I have enough bets to cap until tomorrow", and he proceeds to get out of seat and walk behind the dealer (he was in the 8) to stand beside me (I was in the 1 or 2) and look at my "chips". Now, you may recall earlier in the series there was a scandal in the HU tournament where one of the players was accused of marking cards. Having this in mind, I said that there was only one reason to walk over and that was to look at my cards. He ****ing lost it, and then lost it again when I asked for a setup change.

I played with the guy for 2 days, and the above doesn't come close to telling the whole story, but he's one of the worst people I have ever had the misfortune of dealing with.
I found the video online: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ESzXWUVFeB8. For those who are interested, the hand you're describing starts at about 8:30.

Memory is a funny thing, Andrew. Jared never actually asked you how many chips you had (that was his response after the fact to your comment that you couldn't think of a reason why he'd want to walk over there). What he said initially (to the floorman) was, "I'm gonna stand up. My hand's not dead, right? I want to stand up to see." And he didn't walk behind the dealer; he just stood on his side of the dealer and leaned over, peering at the table in front of you.

I didn't watch the entire final table, but I have to say his behavior was bizarre and highly inappropriate. He couldn't sit still; he kept standing up. (In the hand in which you busted him, he announced, "I'm not going to stand up"—and then within 2 seconds of saying that he does stand up.) He couldn't stop talking to the rail (something another player seemed to complain about); he couldn't let any of the arguments drop; he insulted you to your face; and his purported explanation that he had a reason for wanting to know exactly how many chips you had and would tell you if and when he got heads-up with you made absolutely no sense.

I think on some level he was trying to get under your skin (and may have succeeded, to a degree). I think on some level he simply had no self-control in the moment. I'm frankly surprised that the floorman allowed such bizarre and inappropriate behavior to continue for so long. It made me queasy just watching it; I give you credit for maintaining your composure as much as you did.

Congrats on the win and on knocking him out.
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Old 01-29-2016, 04:04 AM   #118
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Re: Andrew Barber's well

Congrats on the win but imo a little classless to needle him about future cross books right after busting him but what do I know.
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Old 01-29-2016, 02:17 PM   #119
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Re: Andrew Barber's well

yeah, that looked insanely sketchy to me. and don't mean to stereotype, but i hear a lot of stories about those players from back east.
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Old 01-29-2016, 04:46 PM   #120
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Re: Andrew Barber's well

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yeah, that looked insanely sketchy to me. and don't mean to stereotype, but i hear a lot of stories about those players from back east.
Thanks for doing the well, Andrew, great read.

As far as the video goes, it really looks more like JB is used to relying on his computer screen to tell him where he stands in the tournament and he wants to have a somewhat accurate idea of big bets left in each players stack. He looks more like he is just uncomfortable in the situation than anything else. He probably relies more on software to help him with ICM and in the moment he is a bit out of place.
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Old 01-29-2016, 05:34 PM   #121
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Re: Andrew Barber's well

he clearly had more than enough to cap every street. not only that, asking the player what he is playing is a lot easier than notifying the floor multiple times that he is going to stand up and not to kill his hand. **** that.
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Old 01-29-2016, 05:45 PM   #122
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Re: Andrew Barber's well

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he clearly had more than enough to cap every street. not only that, asking the player what he is playing is a lot easier than notifying the floor multiple times that he is going to stand up and not to kill his hand. **** that.
I can easily be wrong, I've never been in that type of position before, just an observers opinion
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Old 01-30-2016, 01:36 AM   #123
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Re: Andrew Barber's well

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One of my goals in Omaha 8 that I haven't seen other people stress is "How can I make sure that my hand is not face-up?" Faceupedness is a concept that is very specific to split pot games, and I think about it a lot when I play/coach.
Could you say more about this? I notice I have a hard time balancing facedupness with making plays that would make less money in a vacuum. The main example that I can think of comes up in Stud 8 when someone takes a free card showing the only possible low on 5th or 6th. Betting my pair/low draw would balance my range, but if I never think the opponent is folding a better high hand I'm just wasting money, right?

In O8 stuff like limp rearing or cold calling/capping when it comes back around with a A234 type hand seems like it would always put you face up, but with a bunch of people in the pot you're giving up a good amount of EV right now if you don't.

I can't think of many examples post flop in O8 off the top of my head, would love to hear some examples from you if you're willing to share.
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Old 01-30-2016, 02:57 AM   #124
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Re: Andrew Barber's well

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As far as the video goes, it really looks more like JB is used to relying on his computer screen to tell him where he stands in the tournament and he wants to have a somewhat accurate idea of big bets left in each players stack.
He looks more like he is just uncomfortable in the situation than anything else. He probably relies more on software to help him with ICM and in the moment he is a bit out of place.
This isn't his WSOP, or first WSOP final table even. And he's played tons of live high stakes cash games over many years. He has to know what he's doing live. And he hasn't played many tournaments online anyway (that I know of at least, might be on other recent multi account, but even still he plays cash online).
Quote:
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he clearly had more than enough to cap every street. not only that, asking the player what he is playing is a lot easier than notifying the floor multiple times that he is going to stand up and not to kill his hand. **** that.
Yeah, this. ****ing weird.
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Old 01-31-2016, 12:17 AM   #125
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Re: Andrew Barber's well

great well, thanks for taking your time to do it
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