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Old 01-19-2016, 04:22 AM   #76
abarber
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Re: Andrew Barber's well

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Originally Posted by deadpeddler View Post
I also think a big part of the value in Limit O8, especially in live games, is the implied tilt factor in playing high cards. If you can showdown a KJ97 type hand in a big action pot and crack three and four Nit's A234 type hands, it can send the table in a frenzy which is always fun....
Clearly you've played with me before. This just happened to me yesterday at Bay 101. I was labelled the "fish on a heater".
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Old 01-19-2016, 09:10 AM   #77
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Re: Andrew Barber's well

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If you graph our equity, we can have >60% equity 4-ways on 25% of turns
Would you discuss what software equipment you've been using.
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Old 01-19-2016, 12:11 PM   #78
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Re: Andrew Barber's well

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Speaking empirically,
I guess by "empirically," you mean from your own experience. (You cannot mean experimentally).

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only being able to continue ~13.5% of the time seems a little too narrow,
Exactly.

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especially considering that we are going to be making some light peels on boards where there are turn cards that shift the equity towards us dramatically. A good example of this would be peeling KQJT in a 4-way raised pot on 269 (or some variant). If you graph our equity, we can have >60% equity 4-ways on 25% of turns (versus some reasonable hand ranges). That's pretty awesome.
I don't know where you get the better than 60% equity. When I simulate the hand against random hands after a flop of 269, I find KQJT-rainbow to be a seriously big dog. 269 is a flop which, in my opinion, completely misses KQJT.

In my humble opinion, Hero, holding KQJT-rainbow, fares better with a flop of 26T or 26K, but not enough better to continue to a bet from an opponent on round #2 (after the flop). And that has me folding KQJT-rainbow to every single flop with two or three low cards (and some flops with one or no high cards).

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It may very well be the case that I'm not going to convince you that such a hand has a lot of value,
If you're convinced KQJT-rainbow has a lot of value, then I think you must be finding some way to extract value. I'm in awe of that.

My problem with the hand is I cannot get past the flop often enough to make the hand profitable. And it's too pretty a hand to use as a misleading show-down hand (to imply excessive looseness).

By the way, playing Omaha-high I think KQJT-rainbow is a fine hand... but at least thus far for me, in Omaha-8, it's a dog. And if that one is a dog, so are all rainbow hands with three of those cards plus one low card, at least for me.

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but I think that after accounting for shared outs for other players, scoop equity, and knowing which turns/rivers to fold, it behooves strong players to add it to the hands they would VPIP.
You have company. I believe many strong players include KQJT-rainbow in their arsenal. But at least for my playing style, 13.5% playability after the flop is insufficient.

Thanks for your attention. I don't mean to clutter up your well.

Buzz
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Old 01-19-2016, 01:08 PM   #79
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Re: Andrew Barber's well

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Would you discuss what software equipment you've been using.
ProPokerTools. I have pretty good intuition after all these years, but it's always good to have confirmation.
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Old 01-19-2016, 01:59 PM   #80
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Re: Andrew Barber's well

Is al the life o8 fixed limit?
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Old 01-19-2016, 04:59 PM   #81
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Re: Andrew Barber's well

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Is al the life o8 fixed limit?
?
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Old 01-19-2016, 05:11 PM   #82
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Re: Andrew Barber's well

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?
i did mean you played life o8. is all the life o8 that is played fixed limit? or also pot limit or no limit o8 ?
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Old 01-19-2016, 05:13 PM   #83
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Re: Andrew Barber's well

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i did mean you played life o8. is all the life o8 that is played fixed limit? or also pot limit or no limit o8 ?
Almost no PLO8 in the US. Only FL in California.
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Old 01-20-2016, 01:28 PM   #84
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Re: Andrew Barber's well

Thanks for doing this, Andrew.

Not sure if you know, but NLO8 has grown in popularity on Stars since post-Black Friday.

What are your thoughts on this format in general and could it be a viable format for live cash/MTTs? Would you welcome a NLO8 event at the WSOP in the near future?
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Old 01-20-2016, 06:07 PM   #85
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Re: Andrew Barber's well

what brm would you recommend someone who wants to start LO8?
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Old 01-20-2016, 08:21 PM   #86
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Re: Andrew Barber's well

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Originally Posted by broken_jia View Post
What are your thoughts on this format in general and could it be a viable format for live cash/MTTs? Would you welcome a NLO8 event at the WSOP in the near future?
Btw there was a NLO8 event at the WSOP the year before last. I was disappointed that they took it out for last year.
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Old 01-20-2016, 08:33 PM   #87
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Re: Andrew Barber's well

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Btw there was a NLO8 event at the WSOP the year before last. I was disappointed that they took it out for last year.
In Vegas? I have been following the WSOP for a while now and have only seen PLO8 and FLO8. Which year/event were you referring to?
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Old 01-20-2016, 09:41 PM   #88
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Re: Andrew Barber's well

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Is al the life o8 fixed limit?
Indeed. Indeed.....
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Old 01-21-2016, 02:54 AM   #89
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Re: Andrew Barber's well

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In Vegas? I have been following the WSOP for a while now and have only seen PLO8 and FLO8. Which year/event were you referring to?
It was in 2014. I was pretty sure that I played in a NLO8 event that year.
I decided to look it up. Hmm, I think was event #59, as Wikipedia doesnt specify what limit it was, it just says: $3,000 Omaha Hi-Low Split-8 or Better -
so I think it was that. I at least played the 2 3k O8s that year (and the $1500 PLO8).
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Old 01-21-2016, 03:59 PM   #90
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Re: Andrew Barber's well

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Thanks for doing this, Andrew.

Not sure if you know, but NLO8 has grown in popularity on Stars since post-Black Friday.

What are your thoughts on this format in general and could it be a viable format for live cash/MTTs? Would you welcome a NLO8 event at the WSOP in the near future?
I have to be the bearer of bad news, but I think that NLO8 incentivizes such nitty play that I don't think the game has a future. I'm shocked that it has grown in popularity. I recall reading about someone who was making money playing 8/4! pre-BF. I'm sure that wouldn't be profitable anymore, but the idea still holds. For this reason, I think sticking to PLO8 is probably best, especially since it has a pretty big following. At one point, the largest non-HE event ever held was PLO8.
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Old 01-21-2016, 04:02 PM   #91
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Re: Andrew Barber's well

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what brm would you recommend someone who wants to start LO8?
Good question. I once saw a line graph in which the variance for each game was plotted and FLO8 seemed to have the lowest variance of any of the games (which I would agree with based on my experience), and this was what drove me to the game in the first place. Because of this, I think you can play with a shorter roll than you would need for other games. I think 200 BBs should be plenty for any game that you play regularly that isn't full of wizards.
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Old 01-21-2016, 04:03 PM   #92
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Re: Andrew Barber's well

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Btw there was a NLO8 event at the WSOP the year before last. I was disappointed that they took it out for last year.
I've never seen NLO8 at the WSOP since 2009 when I first started going.
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Old 01-21-2016, 04:20 PM   #93
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Re: Andrew Barber's well

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I have to be the bearer of bad news, but I think that NLO8 incentivizes such nitty play that I don't think the game has a future.
You could not be more wrong then this. Nl hi/lo is blood bath. It by far the game where the averge pot in bb is biggest and massive. people ripping in 60bb pre on minraise all the time.
I have no idea why you think it but rail some nl hi/lo mid stakes cash games @stars and you will see how crazy it is.
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Old 01-21-2016, 04:30 PM   #94
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Re: Andrew Barber's well

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You could not be more wrong then this. Nl hi/lo is blood bath. It by far the game where the averge pot in bb is biggest and massive. people ripping in 60bb pre on minraise all the time.
I have no idea why you think it but rail some nl hi/lo mid stakes cash games @stars and you will see how crazy it is.
Wow. It just doesn't make any sense. I can understand jamming AAxx, but can't imagine why people would be playing the game loosely.
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Old 01-21-2016, 04:43 PM   #95
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Re: Andrew Barber's well

Yeah I have to agree with Bike there. NL plays way bigger and higher variance than PL. Both in mtts and cash games. It plays way more aggressively.
One large reason for that though is that NL has antes, and PL doesn't. So if anything, I think that more aggressive play is incentivised with the antes.
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Old 01-21-2016, 04:50 PM   #96
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Re: Andrew Barber's well

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Yeah I have to agree with Bike there. NL plays way bigger and higher variance than PL. Both in mtts and cash games. It plays way more aggressively.
One large reason for that though is that NL has antes, and PL doesn't. So if anything, I think that more aggressive play is incentivised with the antes.
That makes sense. I think there is a good chance the game didn't have antes when Stars first introduced it.
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Old 01-21-2016, 04:53 PM   #97
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Re: Andrew Barber's well

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Good question. I once saw a line graph in which the variance for each game was plotted and FLO8 seemed to have the lowest variance of any of the games (which I would agree with based on my experience), and this was what drove me to the game in the first place. Because of this, I think you can play with a shorter roll than you would need for other games. I think 200 BBs should be plenty for any game that you play regularly that isn't full of wizards.
I'm kind of surprised that you think this. In FLO8 I have had some absurdly swingy days online, and I have actually both won and lost 200 big bets in a single day online, more than once. That's obviously specific to online though, with multi-tabling and naturally faster hands than live. So while I think 200BBs might be enough for live, I don't think it is for online.

I was talking to a friend of mine about how/why he thought those days could be so swingy in FLO8 (for example I never used to have such swingy days in LHE), and he thought that because FLO8 is such a showdown-based game, you are essentially forced into showdown much more often than in other games, sometimes calling many bets to get there, and you can more easily just run in to the top of people's ranges often and be getting scooped.
Thoughts?
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Old 01-21-2016, 05:02 PM   #98
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Re: Andrew Barber's well

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I'm kind of surprised that you think this. In FLO8 I have had some absurdly swingy days online, and I have actually both won and lost 200 big bets in a single day online, more than once. That's obviously specific to online though, with multi-tabling and naturally faster hands than live. So while I think 200BBs might be enough for live, I don't think it is for online.

I was talking to a friend of mine about how/why he thought those days could be so swingy in FLO8 (for example I never used to have such swingy days in LHE), and he thought that because FLO8 is such a showdown-based game, you are essentially forced into showdown much more often than in other games, sometimes calling many bets to get there, and you can more easily just run in to the top of people's ranges often and be getting scooped.
Thoughts?
You're correct.. for shorthanded and variance will be way higher shorthanded. I believe he's talking 200bb to be rolled for full ring live games.

You play like 1 hand an hour and your equity in that hand is great because everyone else at the table is playing almost every hand, so they just have weaker ranges so often that you dominate by playing very tight. Since its limit and they can rarely blow you off your equity, having tons of equity in those multi-way pots is printing money long term, so variance will be a lot lower, hence you don't need a larger roll.
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Old 01-21-2016, 05:05 PM   #99
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Re: Andrew Barber's well

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You're correct.. for shorthanded and variance will be way higher shorthanded. I believe he's talking 200bb to be rolled for full ring live games.

You play like 1 hand an hour and your equity in that hand is great because everyone else at the table is playing almost every hand, so they just have weaker ranges so often that you dominate by playing very tight. Since its limit and they can rarely blow you off your equity, having tons of equity in those multi-way pots is printing money long term, so variance will be a lot lower, hence you don't need a larger roll.
Yeah, exactly, agreed.
And yes, the onine games are/were all short-handed.
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Old 01-21-2016, 10:43 PM   #100
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Re: Andrew Barber's well

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Wow. It just doesn't make any sense. I can understand jamming AAxx, but can't imagine why people would be playing the game loosely.
Not going into strategy too much but if the guy who opens only cals of this 60bb shove with aaxx you going to print money if you push hand like A(blocker)k45ds
btw cash game no anties. I can not understand why nl o8 mtt has anties the game is already insanely loose if you play it correct. You can see that in the cap (no anties ) game where regs only play push fold game for 20bb
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