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Old 01-16-2016, 01:40 AM   #51
Hero Value
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Re: Andrew Barber's well

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Originally Posted by abarber View Post
This is a close spot. I'd love more info about average stack size and stack distribution because I think it's an ICM decision. If I had to hazard a guess, I'd say it's a fold, but I could be persuaded to 3b.
You don't consider flat calling?
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I hear Patrik, Gus, and Phil are all great, but I haven't played with any of them. I commentated on a 10k O8 FT with Ivey, and I thought he played way to few hands, but small sample...

Anyway, if I leave myself out, I think Scott Clements...
Lol, this sounds like a list of who was good 10 years ago, and doesn't really apply these days. Gus and Patrik at least are definitely not great these days, and cannot compete at the highest stakes in it. (See Gus' graph from Stars and FTP the last 3 or so years, a lot of which was HU O8, and he hasn't played on either in the last year or 2.)
Scott Clements I've played with like 3-4 times in O8 and PLO8, and I've seen him make some just terrible, glaring errors.
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It's been my pleasure. Yeah, I'll never understand why Jared acted the way he did. I asked everyone afterward about our exchange, and thankfully, everyone thought he was out of line and that I handled it well.
I don't know what you're referring to here, though it doesn't surprise me from Jared. Do you want to tell?
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Old 01-16-2016, 01:48 AM   #52
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Re: Andrew Barber's well

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Originally Posted by abarber
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Originally Posted by omybike
So you have not played online o8 on stars since BF and think the information you going to share has any influence on the game, interesting.
The 75 game on Stars was pretty advanced around the time of BF, so you're probably right about new information not being particularly beneficial to that small player pool. However, I've played over 2.5 million hands of Omaha, and I can tell you that I don't see people doing the things that I do. It could be the case that these are not good strategies, but I would argue that my results are evidence that they are.
I understand your skepticism. I wish I could still play on Stars to see how I would do. I can only tell you that I am frequently asked questions by really good players because they know me to be on the strategy forefront.
Haven't you read OMB's book? "Beating World Class Stars Players at Split-pot Poker: how to flop trips and dodge nearly half the deck on the river"

https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/44...l#post49078522


More seriously, would you prefer HORSE or HEROS? I never liked that O8 came right after LHE. Do you like having the stud games all stacked together at the end?


Most seriously, hope are successful in promoting effective altruism where/when you can - a worthy effort for sure.
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Old 01-16-2016, 05:44 AM   #53
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Re: Andrew Barber's well

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Originally Posted by greybeard33 View Post
Haven't you read OMB's book? "Beating World Class Stars Players at Split-pot Poker: how to flop trips and dodge nearly half the deck on the river"

https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/44...l#post49078522
hehe funny but there has never been a world class player that has write a book. Maybe i will write a book if i am old and retired


But serious question to OP: Do you not think that fixed o8 is a very simple game comparing to plo8 ?
In my small sample i have played fixed (hu/3way) it did feel there not much edge to be gamed because mistakes does not cost you lot of money.
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Old 01-16-2016, 01:02 PM   #54
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Re: Andrew Barber's well

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You don't consider flat calling?
A substantial part of our equity in this hand is on the high side, and will realize it easier if the pot is heads up. We will also get to control the pot size post, possibly getting to the river for a half bet if need be. Like I said though, I think fold is likely best here for ICM reasons.

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Lol, this sounds like a list of who was good 10 years ago, and doesn't really apply these days. Gus and Patrik at least are definitely not great these days, and cannot compete at the highest stakes in it. (See Gus' graph from Stars and FTP the last 3 or so years, a lot of which was HU O8, and he hasn't played on either in the last year or 2.)
Scott Clements I've played with like 3-4 times in O8 and PLO8, and I've seen him make some just terrible, glaring errors.
I never claimed to have my finger on the pulse of the game these days I do think that poker players get way too caught up in the hierarchy, and that can hinder one's ability to think rationally about the game. I can attest to seeing each of the players I listed doing things I thought were particularly good, but that does not mean that they don't have leaks. EVERYONE plays bad sometimes.

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I don't know what you're referring to here, though it doesn't surprise me from Jared. Do you want to tell?
I think it was discussed in a 2p2 podcast and maybe a couple other places, but I'll try to give an abbreviated version:

We had exchanged words throughout the FT, butbhen we were down to 4 or 5-handed play, It folded to the SB (Jared), who asked me how many chips I had. I was the CL at this point, and we are playing FIXED LIMIT, so it made no sense to ask, especially if I cover. I said "I have enough bets to cap until tomorrow", and he proceeds to get out of seat and walk behind the dealer (he was in the 8) to stand beside me (I was in the 1 or 2) and look at my "chips". Now, you may recall earlier in the series there was a scandal in the HU tournament where one of the players was accused of marking cards. Having this in mind, I said that there was only one reason to walk over and that was to look at my cards. He ****ing lost it, and then lost it again when I asked for a setup change.

I played with the guy for 2 days, and the above doesn't come close to telling the whole story, but he's one of the worst people I have ever had the misfortune of dealing with.
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Old 01-16-2016, 01:13 PM   #55
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Re: Andrew Barber's well

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More seriously, would you prefer HORSE or HEROS? I never liked that O8 came right after LHE. Do you like having the stud games all stacked together at the end?
This is a cool question. I've heard several proposals over the years. Most people declare Stud to be the worst game, so SHOE is constantly requested over HORSE. I think there is value in having the flop games next to each other for ease of transition, but I totally appreciate the desire to alternate. I personally wish they randomized the starting game on Day 1s, but c'est la vie.

The time at which order matters most, of course, is when you're short stacked. thinking about the games that are best for a short stack is crucial if you play a lot of mixed game tournaments. This might be the best argument for alternating the games because 2 flop games followed by 3 stud games can be brutal if you're short at the wrong time.

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Most seriously, hope are successful in promoting effective altruism where/when you can - a worthy effort for sure.
Thank you. I have to admit that I didn't give a damn about charity before I discovered EA, but once I heard the argument and read a couple books (or even some articles), it was irrefutable. I have to admit that it is pretty cool to discover an idea that is so big that it becomes a directing force in one's life. It's really fulfilling to realize that I am playing poker and earning income to make the world better and literally save lives.
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Old 01-16-2016, 01:24 PM   #56
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Re: Andrew Barber's well

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hehe funny but there has never been a world class player that has write a book. Maybe i will write a book if i am old and retired
This is my thought, too. Right now, the return just isn't there. If I knew writing a book were worth exactly 100k, I think that would be enough for me to write it since it would be hard to extract more than that from the players that might read it.

Another consideration for me is that the idea of producing new information, actually creating something, that people would want to read is such a fantastic bucket list item that I might do it for less. How many people do you know that are published authors?


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But serious question to OP: Do you not think that fixed o8 is a very simple game comparing to plo8 ?
In my small sample i have played fixed (hu/3way) it did feel there not much edge to be gamed because mistakes does not cost you lot of money.
I think it is hard relative to big bet games, but I think it will be one of the last games to be solved. If we played 100 hands of LHE, I think we might only disagree on a few hands if it were 6m and maybe a few more if it were HU/3-handed. In FLO8, there is so much artistry in choice of lines and trying to solve how the other person values their high equity and low equity and how they play each half of the pot that we might disagree on 25% of hands.

In my novice opinion, PLO8 forces you to abandon all of the marginal spots you see in FLO8 because of concerns that you don't face in a limit structure. Most of the value in the game is from people who don't see the vast divide between the two games. I want to laugh when people talk to me about folding bad A2 hands in FLO8
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Old 01-16-2016, 02:31 PM   #57
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Re: Andrew Barber's well

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Hand histories, videos,
Where are you finding many O8 vids?
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Old 01-16-2016, 04:07 PM   #58
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Re: Andrew Barber's well

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Where are you finding many O8 vids?
I was responding about improvement in general, not O8 specifically. There used to be a few O8 videos on Cardrunners, and I think other sites had 1 or 2. Run It Once only has one mixed game player (Dylan Linde), so even they are lacking. I think it's a testament to the intelligence of mixed game players that they aren't giving away secrets like in the early NLHE days.

It should always be the case that getting better at poker comes at a significant cost, whether that's seeking out people to talk with, reading threads on 2p2, or even making the investment in coaching.
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Old 01-16-2016, 04:15 PM   #59
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Re: Andrew Barber's well

Thanks for doing this well.

I know its broad but what would you say the fields are like for wsop events in FLO8 and PLO8? Would you class them as the softest fields out of the mix games?
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Old 01-16-2016, 04:25 PM   #60
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Re: Andrew Barber's well

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Thanks for doing this well.

I know its broad but what would you say the fields are like for wsop events in FLO8 and PLO8? Would you class them as the softest fields out of the mix games?
You're welcome. I don't know where the Dealer's Choice falls since it's so new, but I think the consensus for a few years has been that the 1500 PLO8 and the Main Event are the two softest events the WSOP has to offer. It's tougher to say with the 1500 O8, but I'd say it's clearly in top 5 "easiest" on my schedule. Obviously so much of this determined by your table draw, and now with the slower structures, you are stuck with your starting table much longer.
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Old 01-16-2016, 04:53 PM   #61
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Re: Andrew Barber's well

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I personally wish they randomized the starting game on Day 1s, but c'est la vie.
The EPT always do this btw. They draw for the first game in the same way that they draw for what seat the button starts in.

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A substantial part of our equity in this hand is on the high side, and will realize it easier if the pot is heads up. We will also get to control the pot size post, possibly getting to the river for a half bet if need be. Like I said though, I think fold is likely best here for ICM reasons.
I realised that I actually misread the hand, and thought that we were in the big blind rather than small, where flatting would have been more reasonable. However, you saying: "We will also get to control the size of the pot post, possibly getting to the river for a half bet if need be", sounds like that is advocating flat-calling?

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but that does not mean that they don't have leaks. EVERYONE plays bad sometimes.
While I do agree with you somewhat about the hierarchy part, however I'm sure that it's not just "playing bad sometimes/having leaks". For example Gus or Patrik would get destroyed (again) at it at the highest stakes now, as would probably anyone else on your list tbh.
For fun I just decided to search Gus' O8 stats for the last year that he really played online lol, which was 2013. And just in O8, just on FTP, for 2013, he lost over $4 million.
It was clear a while ago that he and other ex-top pros were out-classed in it by the math guys, like Kyle Hendon, Kyle Ray and Alex Luneau. (Though I still Gus.)
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Now, you may recall earlier in the series there was a scandal in the HU tournament where one of the players was accused of marking cards. Having this in mind, I said that there was only one reason to walk over and that was to look at my cards. He ****ing lost it, and then lost it again when I asked for a setup change.
Yeah, I remember that scandal. So were/are you genuinely suggesting that he was marking cards? And he just lost it at your insinuation of that, or?
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Old 01-16-2016, 05:09 PM   #62
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Re: Andrew Barber's well

I agree that the WSOP $1500 PLO8 is very soft, one of the softest mix. Imo the $1500 Dealer's choice is the most fun event, but I think the field in that can be really tough. Like the last 2 years I've always had guys like Todd Brunson and Shawn Buchanan at my tables (I played with those 2 in it on both years).

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This is my thought, too. Right now, the return just isn't there. If I knew writing a book were worth exactly 100k, I think that would be enough for me to write it since it would be hard to extract more than that from the players that might read it.

Another consideration for me is that the idea of producing new information, actually creating something, that people would want to read is such a fantastic bucket list item that I might do it for less. How many people do you know that are published authors?
Yeah I totally agree with this. A friend asked me about co-writing a mixed games book with him, and while I basically said no, due to the time and potential monetary cost, that was the thing that really drew me to it. That I thought it would be really cool to create something that people would want to read and be grateful for, and also just be proud of helping to teach people.
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Old 01-17-2016, 03:22 PM   #63
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Re: Andrew Barber's well

Hey bro...congrats on the bracelet. Enjoyed the pokercast episode. I'm very intrigued by your new social views. Did you play the powerball in hopes to win 1.4B and make it rain to all?
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Old 01-17-2016, 03:50 PM   #64
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Re: Andrew Barber's well

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The EPT always do this btw. They draw for the first game in the same way that they draw for what seat the button starts in.
Wow. Way to go, EPT!

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I realised that I actually misread the hand, and thought that we were in the big blind rather than small, where flatting would have been more reasonable. However, you saying: "We will also get to control the size of the pot post, possibly getting to the river for a half bet if need be", sounds like that is advocating flat-calling?
If you flat, you might have to call a flop and turn bet to realize your equity, so by 3-betting, you potentially save half a bet, not to mention the increase in the number of times you win without showdown.


Quote:
While I do agree with you somewhat about the hierarchy part, however I'm sure that it's not just "playing bad sometimes/having leaks". For example Gus or Patrik would get destroyed (again) at it at the highest stakes now, as would probably anyone else on your list tbh.
For fun I just decided to search Gus' O8 stats for the last year that he really played online lol, which was 2013. And just in O8, just on FTP, for 2013, he lost over $4 million.
It was clear a while ago that he and other ex-top pros were out-classed in it by the math guys, like Kyle Hendon, Kyle Ray and Alex Luneau. (Though I still Gus.)
Forgot kpr...he crushed. But yeah, I am really trying to avoid this type of thinking. I merely want to borrow from the players that I recognize to be successful. I completely stole 2-7 strategy from stevie444, for example.

Quote:
Yeah, I remember that scandal. So were/are you genuinely suggesting that he was marking cards? And he just lost it at your insinuation of that, or?
Occam's razor FTW. Seemed liked the most likely explanation. No one likes being called a cheater, especially people whose character has already been called into question in the past.
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Old 01-17-2016, 03:51 PM   #65
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Re: Andrew Barber's well

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Yeah I totally agree with this. A friend asked me about co-writing a mixed games book with him, and while I basically said no, due to the time and potential monetary cost, that was the thing that really drew me to it. That I thought it would be really cool to create something that people would want to read and be grateful for, and also just be proud of helping to teach people.
I've discussed it with a couple people. It should be no surprise that with very few exceptions, the books are written by people who are no longer crushing. Perhaps we should chat about this. I like our chances of eclipsing Ken Lo's as the best mixed game book on the market.
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Old 01-17-2016, 03:57 PM   #66
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Re: Andrew Barber's well

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Hey bro...congrats on the bracelet. Enjoyed the pokercast episode. I'm very intrigued by your new social views. Did you play the powerball in hopes to win 1.4B and make it rain to all?
Yeah, I'd love to answer any and all questions on the topic. It is an incredibly profound idea that has permeated many facets of my life.

I played the powerball because I believe it to be +EV for individuals who file as professional gamblers and expect to have wins that they can deduct from. If you're not familiar, this effectively means that you buy tickets at a discount (1 minus your top tax rate).

Had I won, I definitely would have made it rain in Africa, India, and other third-world countries. I could've personally eliminated some pretty terrible diseases from the Earth. It would've been pretty sick. Oh well. I'll just keep chipping away.
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Old 01-18-2016, 12:18 AM   #67
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Re: Andrew Barber's well

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If you flat, you might have to call a flop and turn bet to realize your equity, so by 3-betting, you potentially save half a bet, not to mention the increase in the number of times you win without showdown.
Hah so now it's you who misread it. It's PLO8, not FLO8 (e.g. he opens to more than 2x the blinds), so if we're 3-betting it's going to be shoving with that stack.
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Forgot kpr...he crushed. But yeah, I am really trying to avoid this type of thinking. I merely want to borrow from the players that I recognize to be successful. I completely stole 2-7 strategy from stevie444, for example.
Yeah, I did this quite a lot as well. I've railed high stakes/nosebleeds a ton, and learned a lot from there. And also did things like watch COOP FT replays, including with guys like stevie at a deuce FT, before I then surpassed him/others in it and some other games.
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Occam's razor FTW. Seemed liked the most likely explanation. No one likes being called a cheater, especially people whose character has already been called into question in the past.
Well, while it's well-known/documented that Jared is a huge scumbag, he is still very good at poker. So I wouldn't think that he would have to cheat to get ahead at the WSOP.
And also HORSE isn't even such a useful format for marking cards, when you have hole/down cards that overlap eachother, as well as having so many of them to remember for O8 and Stud games, and also if the marking doesn't show suits for O8 and Stud/Stud8 (I don't know how much detail the marking would potentially have).
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I've discussed it with a couple people. It should be no surprise that with very few exceptions, the books are written by people who are no longer crushing. Perhaps we should chat about this. I like our chances of eclipsing Ken Lo's as the best mixed game book on the market.
Agreed. I would like our chances in that too .
Although the thing for mixed games is, as it's quite niche, I don't think there is a lot of money in it. So I think we would potentially be giving up a lot of EV by teaching a lot of valuable knowledge, while getting a somewhat limited return.
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Old 01-18-2016, 05:52 AM   #68
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Re: Andrew Barber's well

good read, kinda nice to see wells are back
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Old 01-18-2016, 06:43 PM   #69
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Re: Andrew Barber's well

Have you used the ProPokertools rank calculator? Opinions? It ranks the strength of KsQhJdTc in the 67th percentile. That may be right, but I think most people value that hand considerably more.
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Old 01-18-2016, 07:25 PM   #70
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Re: Andrew Barber's well

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Have you used the ProPokertools rank calculator? Opinions? It ranks the strength of KsQhJdTc in the 67th percentile. That may be right, but I think most people value that hand considerably more.
Very good question, in my opinion.

Since it's Andrew's well, I won't give my opinion of that hand here, but I'm very interested in Andrew's answer (or the possible answers of other experts)... especially since Andrew has already posted (in post #11 in this well):
Quote:
The conventional wisdom regarding split-pot games is to play hands that can scoop, right? So for years, the mantra has been "Go low and hope for high." Well, if everyone else is doing that, the best response is to play hands that exploit this tendency, i.e. high-only hands. This has its limitations of course, but it is always on my mind when playing split-pot games.
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Old 01-18-2016, 11:22 PM   #71
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Re: Andrew Barber's well

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Hah so now it's you who misread it. It's PLO8, not FLO8 (e.g. he opens to more than 2x the blinds), so if we're 3-betting it's going to be shoving with that stack.
Oops. Yeah. If we can get over 50% of our stack in pre, I think it's probably a 3b vs an active player, but even in PLO8 I could see a fold being advocated for.

Quote:
Well, while it's well-known/documented that Jared is a huge scumbag, he is still very good at poker. So I wouldn't think that he would have to cheat to get ahead at the WSOP.
And also HORSE isn't even such a useful format for marking cards, when you have hole/down cards that overlap eachother, as well as having so many of them to remember for O8 and Stud games, and also if the marking doesn't show suits for O8 and Stud/Stud8 (I don't know how much detail the marking would potentially have).
Oh, I don't think it's highly likely, but I couldn't make any sense of it. Card marking has been a continual issue at the WSOP, though, as you may remember.
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Old 01-18-2016, 11:33 PM   #72
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Re: Andrew Barber's well

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Have you used the ProPokertools rank calculator? Opinions? It ranks the strength of KsQhJdTc in the 67th percentile. That may be right, but I think most people value that hand considerably more.
I will be completely honest with you: I have never put much stock in hand rankings because they aren't based in reality. I can see them being useful in PLO8 where hand selection is more important, but the equities run together so closely in O8 that it's hard to make a big mistake pre PROVIDED that you don't spew post. You can only have a high VPIP if you are a good hand reader that gets value from worse and folds to better routinely. As a general rule, high only hands don't play well OOP. They also play better in small pots with few players or large pots with many players. High hands tend to be easier to play, IMO.

Buzz,

Please feel free to chime in.

FWIW, having no suits is kind of a bummer for your hand, so that hurts it somewhat -- it has more limited backdoor equity.

Last edited by abarber; 01-18-2016 at 11:34 PM. Reason: Buzz
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Old 01-19-2016, 03:54 AM   #73
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Re: Andrew Barber's well

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Buzz,

Please feel free to chime in.
OK. I really was more interested in what you would have to say about this starting hand and also what you would have to say about ProPokerTools rankings of hands.

In order to think I have a flop fit for high, I want to see at least two cards on the flop that I can use for what I call a "made" hand (straight or better). With KQJT, my no-bluff flop minimums for this hand have me feeling I have a flop fit roughly 13.5% (roughly two times in fifteen). If I play this hand, I might actually continue more than 13.5%, depending on my "feel" for the situation ("read" of my opponents). But I really only like about 2342/17296 possible flops with this rainbow hand.

And that more or less jibes with ProPokerTools relatively low ranking for
KQJT as a starting hand.

Since most of the time (a whopping 86.5%), I'll want to fold this starting hand after the flop - in general I'm less than eager to see the flop with this hand.

There's obviously a lot more to playing these particular starting cards, but for me, since you invited me to "chime in," KQJT does not rate highly. That's just my opinion.

Thanks. Your well, for me, is a very interesting read. I hope you'll write that book or perhaps collaborate with Hero Value.

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Old 01-19-2016, 04:16 AM   #74
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Re: Andrew Barber's well

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OK. I really was more interested in what you would have to say about this starting hand and also what you would have to say about ProPokerTools rankings of hands.

In order to think I have a flop fit for high, I want to see at least two cards on the flop that I can use for what I call a "made" hand (straight or better). With KQJT, my no-bluff flop minimums for this hand have me feeling I have a flop fit roughly 13.5% (roughly two times in fifteen). If I play this hand, I might actually continue more than 13.5%, depending on my "feel" for the situation ("read" of my opponents). But I really only like about 2342/17296 possible flops with this rainbow hand.

And that more or less jibes with ProPokerTools relatively low ranking for
KQJT as a starting hand.

Since most of the time (a whopping 86.5%), I'll want to fold this starting hand after the flop - in general I'm less than eager to see the flop with this hand.

There's obviously a lot more to playing these particular starting cards, but for me, since you invited me to "chime in," KQJT does not rate highly. That's just my opinion.

Thanks. Your well, for me, is a very interesting read. I hope you'll write that book or perhaps collaborate with Hero Value.

Buzz
Speaking empirically, only being able to continue ~13.5% of the time seems a little too narrow, especially considering that we are going to be making some light peels on boards where there are turn cards that shift the equity towards us dramatically. A good example of this would be peeling KQJT in a 4-way raised pot on 269 (or some variant). If you graph our equity, we can have >60% equity 4-ways on 25% of turns (versus some reasonable hand ranges). That's pretty awesome.

It may very well be the case that I'm not going to convince you that such a hand has a lot of value, but I think that after accounting for shared outs for other players, scoop equity, and knowing which turns/rivers to fold, it behooves strong players to add it to the hands they would VPIP.
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Old 01-19-2016, 04:17 AM   #75
deadpeddler
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Join Date: Apr 2014
Posts: 520
Re: Andrew Barber's well

I also think a big part of the value in Limit O8, especially in live games, is the implied tilt factor in playing high cards. If you can showdown a KJ97 type hand in a big action pot and crack three and four Nit's A234 type hands, it can send the table in a frenzy which is always fun....

Last edited by deadpeddler; 01-19-2016 at 04:26 AM.
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