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Old 01-15-2016, 01:02 AM   #26
abarber
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Re: Andrew Barber's well

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You believe that you have solved GTO solutions for all Stud games? How/on what is that based on? Have you just run tons of sims? If so, in what, PPT? Especially for 3rd with ante structures I think it's very tough to find GTO solutions in all 3 of the games. That would be impressive.
That was perhaps was an overstatement, but what I meant to say is that I think about game theory when playing games in the rotation. When I play non-HE games, I'm generally thinking about having a balanced range versus good players and finding ways to prevent myself from being exploited.

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You're certain that the way the game is played will change everywhere? FLO8 at all stakes and levels? That's a pretty bold claim. Can you give some more info on that like how you think it will change?
I think that the game is already evolving at the higher stakes and any new release of information would just confirm the changes that are already occurring. It's impossible to prove this, obviously.


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Nick said that last year was your last WSOP, but you will still play some of the series for the next 2 years? And then continue playing it after UCSC?
Thanks.
I will play a limited schedule the next few years, I think, but I would imagine I'll be able to play more while I work on my thesis.
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Old 01-15-2016, 01:14 AM   #27
Hero Value
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Re: Andrew Barber's well

How much do you defend your bb in O8? And how much does it vary for if 9,6, or 3 handed against one opponent? And for when vs 1 or 2 opponents?
Do/did you play much HU or 3-handed?
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Old 01-15-2016, 01:19 AM   #28
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Re: Andrew Barber's well

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I think that the game is already evolving at the higher stakes and any new release of information would just confirm the changes that are already occurring. It's impossible to prove this, obviously.
I'm still interested in what you mean by this, are you able to say any more?
The game has indeed evolved over the last few years online at the highest stakes, particularly HU, but I'm not sure if it is continuing to. And yeah "any new release of information" is basically (both unfortunately and fortunately) non-existent.
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If multiple are peeling wet board for multiple bets, you can infer that they are typically sharing outs, which can only serve to improve your equity if you're going a different direction. That info can also be beneficial if you have one of the hands that is competing for the same outs. Does that make sense?
it makes sense.
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Old 01-15-2016, 05:28 AM   #29
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Re: Andrew Barber's well

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I'll say that much of this is related to multiway pots where determining equity is more important. People tend to play certain hands more aggressively than others, e.g. nut low plus a FD is played more aggressively than just one or the other. If multiple are peeling wet board for multiple bets, you can infer that they are typically sharing outs, which can only serve to improve your equity if you're going a different direction. That info can also be beneficial if you have one of the hands that is competing for the same outs. Does that make sense?
Yes. It makes sense. Thank you.

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Old 01-15-2016, 05:34 AM   #30
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Re: Andrew Barber's well

taking away the split pot games, what is your best game? where do you rank NLHE cash amongst your best games?

Who is better at 2-7 TD, you or Erle? Who is better at NLHE, you or focused Erle? Who is better at prop betting, you or Erle?

Do you still think Rubio is the front runner to get GOP nom?
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Old 01-15-2016, 10:41 AM   #31
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Re: Andrew Barber's well

Hi Andrew,

0. Congrats on your bracelet and your overall success.

1. When you started out really hot online and won 3K, I assume it was at L08?

2. When you're in Vegas, do you play any cash LO8? If you do, is it at The Orleans or somewhere else?

3. Do you do any coaching for just L08?

4. What's the highest level math course that you took/are taking in school?

5. Have you ever folded aces full?

6. Any advice for novices playing LO8 online?

7. What is trashier, JJ57 or Kim Kardasian?


Thanks in advance.

Last edited by codemanz5; 01-15-2016 at 10:41 AM. Reason: typo
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Old 01-15-2016, 11:00 AM   #32
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Re: Andrew Barber's well

So you have not played online o8 on stars since BF and think the information you going to share has any influence on the game, interesting.
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Old 01-15-2016, 11:40 AM   #33
abarber
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Re: Andrew Barber's well

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Originally Posted by Hero Value View Post
How much do you defend your bb in O8? And how much does it vary for if 9,6, or 3 handed against one opponent? And for when vs 1 or 2 opponents?
Do/did you play much HU or 3-handed?
I played a lot of HU/3-handed, and I try to only start tables on Bovada.

I wish I had filtered percentages for you. I spent a lot of time trying to figure out the optimal VPIP, vacillating between 33-52! for 6max. With regards to big blind defense, this was one of the areas where I saw myself diverging from conventional wisdom first. I saw the equities running so close together that I thought it had to be bad to fold for one more bet, assuming that the person's steal percentage wasn't insanely low.

As far as adjusting for >2 people, any competent players 3-handed should be 3-betting the SB quite frequently to get the overlay from the BB (I hope this isn't confusing. I think this language has become a little more common over the years), so the opportunity to defend should be present less often. Assuming there is no 3-betting, though, I would defend only slightly fewer hands.

Until this well, I haven't been as motivated to run simulations to confirm/reject my theories about the game, so thank you
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Old 01-15-2016, 11:48 AM   #34
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Re: Andrew Barber's well

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Originally Posted by TheGreenMile View Post
taking away the split pot games, what is your best game? where do you rank NLHE cash amongst your best games?

Who is better at 2-7 TD, you or Erle? Who is better at NLHE, you or focused Erle? Who is better at prop betting, you or Erle?

Do you still think Rubio is the front runner to get GOP nom?
I actually think it might be Razz, but I've never thought about subtracting my best games. I care more about your opinion of my NLHE game than my own.

I'll take me in TD by a slim margin, and he wins SD by a landslide.

I think Erle probably wins more versus bad players, but I might do better versus a tougher lineup.

I gotta take me in prop betting!

The market is unwilling to give up on Trump, and I'm gonna feel really stupid if Trump carries the nomination, but I think Rubio (or dark horse) is favorite. I wish people would start dropping out so Paul or Kasich could steal vote share.
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Old 01-15-2016, 11:56 AM   #35
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Re: Andrew Barber's well

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Hi Andrew,

0. Congrats on your bracelet and your overall success.
Thank you.

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1. When you started out really hot online and won 3K, I assume it was at L08?
Yes. To be clear, outside of some live cash, I have played fewer than 1k hands of PLO8.

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2. When you're in Vegas, do you play any cash LO8? If you do, is it at The Orleans or somewhere else?
During WSOP, only at the Rio. Outside of WSOP, it used to be Bellagio, then Venetian, and now I hear the game is back at the Venetian.

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3. Do you do any coaching for just L08?
Yes.

Quote:
4. What's the highest level math course that you took/are taking in school?
Multivariable calculus, linear algebra, and real analysis.

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5. Have you ever folded aces full?
Multiple times. I think it's analogous to folding KK pre. It should happen on occasion.

Quote:
6. Any advice for novices playing LO8 online?
Play very few hands and play them perfectly. Add hands as you become comfortable. Choose games based on the stats, and if you don't have that luxury, make adjustments for the game that you play. Post hands and talk to other players because books will only get you so far since they are becoming dated (this is really only true of higher stakes).

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7. What is trashier, JJ57 or Kim Kardashian?
JJ57 is a premium when those are my choices. Society's obsession with her (and others) is so tilting.
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Old 01-15-2016, 12:05 PM   #36
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Re: Andrew Barber's well

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So you have not played online o8 on stars since BF and think the information you going to share has any influence on the game, interesting.
The 75 game on Stars was pretty advanced around the time of BF, so you're probably right about new information not being particularly beneficial to that small player pool. However, I've played over 2.5 million hands of Omaha, and I can tell you that I don't see people doing the things that I do. It could be the case that these are not good strategies, but I would argue that my results are evidence that they are.

I understand your skepticism. I wish I could still play on Stars to see how I would do. I can only tell you that I am frequently asked questions by really good players because they know me to be on the strategy forefront.
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Old 01-15-2016, 01:15 PM   #37
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Re: Andrew Barber's well

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I gotta take me in prop betting
I call.

Andrew,

1. If you could only play one week of poker a year, where, when, what and with who would you play? Please limit answer to players that you've previously played with. Who would deal?

2. What is the major cause of someone's ass crack showing, pants too small or butt too big?

3. Is FL08 a dying game?
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Old 01-15-2016, 01:24 PM   #38
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Re: Andrew Barber's well

Have you read mathematics of poker?
When do you want to play 1on1?
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Old 01-15-2016, 01:50 PM   #39
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Re: Andrew Barber's well

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1. If you could only play one week of poker a year, where, when, what and with who would you play? Please limit answer to players that you've previously played with. Who would deal?
Tough question. If the goal is to make money, I probably go with the biggest whales that I could tolerate for a week, but I think that's a boring answer. I'll give you the lineup I wouldn't mind losing money to.

David Sklansky. This guy is incredibly interesting and we always have great convos.
Mike Sexton. As I mentioned before, his stories are fantastic.
Daniel Negreanu. I enjoy his energy, but this would be more of an impact play.
Liv Boeree. She's quite brilliant and I'd like to get another poker player/effective altruist at the table.
This list is becoming a little dry. I think Antonio and Phil Laak would make the table really enjoyable.
To round it out, I'd include some of the following:
Mike McDonald, Phil Galfond, Sorel Mizzi, Faraz Jaka, Gordo, Todd Brunson.
If we are 10-handed, you have a seat at the table.

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2. What is the major cause of someone's ass crack showing, pants too small or butt too big?
Trick question. It's actually shirt too short. Thanks for not providing photo evidence!

Quote:
3. Is FL08 a dying game?
It feels like it's struggling, but I think it will always have a niche following. I know that the joke is that FLO8 will die when all the guys that started playing it in the 80s die.

I remember when PLO8 was supposed to be the "game of the future", but I think it's like Stud Hi-Lo No Qualifier in that it's a way to take money really quickly. I think the future of poker is HE and constantly changing mixes, of which hopefully FLO8 will always be a part.
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Old 01-15-2016, 01:59 PM   #40
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Re: Andrew Barber's well

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Have you read mathematics of poker?
When do you want to play 1on1?
I have not. I was told that it was redundant, but I am open to reading it if I hear some praise for it.

How about this summer in Vegas?
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Old 01-15-2016, 02:41 PM   #41
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Re: Andrew Barber's well

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So you have not played online o8 on stars since BF and think the information you going to share has any influence on the game, interesting.
You think all world class players just play on Stars? Interesting.
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Old 01-15-2016, 02:59 PM   #42
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Re: Andrew Barber's well

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You think all world class players just play on Stars? Interesting.
That used to be the case. I'm afraid I don't know the current online poker scene. I'd love to sweat a session of yours if that would be okay. Perhaps we could both learn from each other.
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Old 01-15-2016, 05:22 PM   #43
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Re: Andrew Barber's well

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That used to be the case. I'm afraid I don't know the current online poker scene. I'd love to sweat a session of yours if that would be okay. Perhaps we could both learn from each other.
I was being more than a little sarcastic! Bike has a talent for cras statements with little or no substantiation. He may take you up on the offer as he isn't short of self confidence.

It is ludicrous to suggest quality players who couldn't play on Stars post BF became bad because they couldn't on one site or that they stopped learning because of this.

Good Well so far.

My questions.

How did yo get into game theory. I see you didn't read MoP?

What study do you do away from the tables?

How did you develop your strategies?

Bike. FYI.

http://pokerdb.thehendonmob.com/player.php?a=r&n=114650
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Old 01-15-2016, 06:46 PM   #44
abarber
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Re: Andrew Barber's well

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I was being more than a little sarcastic! Bike has a talent for cras statements with little or no substantiation. He may take you up on the offer as he isn't short of self confidence.

It is ludicrous to suggest quality players who couldn't play on Stars post BF became bad because they couldn't on one site or that they stopped learning because of this.
I definitely did not mean to suggest this. Stars just tended to draw the best players. I always thought the games on FTP were softer than Stars. I don't know where the best players are now, but I know that Bovada is tougher now than either site was back then.

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How did yo get into game theory. I see you didn't read MoP?
I've studied it as an economist. I've read several books on the subject, and it sounds like leaving MoP off of my reading list was a grave mistake, so I will be starting it soon. It's my favorite subject, and I am considering writing a thesis in the field.

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What study do you do away from the tables?
Hand histories, videos, and discussion with other players. Having a network of solid players is invaluable. I get to message some of the best in the world in almost any game at any time. It's my personal opinion that working on my mental game is where I get the best returns for my time now, though.

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How did you develop your strategies?
Trial and error. I think pruning a game tree over time is one of the best ways to learn a game, and I was always willing to try new things (see playing 52% of hands above ) For a couple years when I was first starting, I kept a poker journal where I would write down my thoughts on the game, and these would serve as the outline for my book, if I were to write it.
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Old 01-15-2016, 07:01 PM   #45
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Re: Andrew Barber's well

Btw I'm pretty sure that streityboy was saying that towards Bike, and not you, and wasn't saying that you made that "ludicrous" suggestion.
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I have not. I was told that it was redundant, but I am open to reading it if I hear some praise for it.
I don't think it's redundant in terms of it becoming outdated, as I believe that these days it all still applies in essence. But I guess that it would be redundant if you had basically learned and worked it all out for yourself already.
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Old 01-15-2016, 07:21 PM   #46
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Re: Andrew Barber's well

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Btw I'm pretty sure that streityboy was saying that towards Bike, and not you, and wasn't saying that you made that "ludicrous" suggestion.
Yes. Absolutely no animosity towards you OP.

I just think it is churlish from bike to shout someone down just because of where they play.

Favourite TV poker clip Andrew (aside from the last hand of your WSOP win obviously)?
Favourite economist? I loved Hayek and Smith.
Is economics worthy of the title of a science? Who would you consider a great economist of our time? Has it become too maths based (i.e any grand theorists still about?)
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Old 01-15-2016, 07:47 PM   #47
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Re: Andrew Barber's well

I am 22/30 in $33 nightly plo8 on Bovada w 27 spots paying I have 15k in chips... blinds 600/1200, active chip leader opens UTG +2 to 2500.. fold around to me in the small blind with AK57 with A5 of spades, what should I do and why?

5 best fixed limit O8 players in the world in your opinion.

Thanks for doing this, loved watching you and Harrington10 go at it at WSOP.. glad you busted him...
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Old 01-15-2016, 07:50 PM   #48
Hero Value
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Re: Andrew Barber's well

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Until this well, I haven't been as motivated to run simulations to confirm/reject my theories about the game, so thank you
Heh, you're welcome. I also find it interesting when your regular beliefs in poker are challenged. At worst it can normally just give you more confidence in that what you've been doing is correct/good.
Where/in what are you running those sims?
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I wish I had filtered percentages for you. I spent a lot of time trying to figure out the optimal VPIP, vacillating between 33-52! for 6max. With regards to big blind defense, this was one of the areas where I saw myself diverging from conventional wisdom first. I saw the equities running so close together that I thought it had to be bad to fold for one more bet, assuming that the person's steal percentage wasn't insanely low.
That's a surprisingly high VPIP for 6-max if it ever gets near 52% imo, if it's a full 6-handed table.
And can you say what "pruning the game tree" involved?
For defending, so do you still think that it's bad to fold to one more bet, and any rough % then for that, 80%?
Though I assume that it varies somewhat with what position it is against though, with how well your range is doing vs theirs, e.g. with defending wider vs button than vs UTG?
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Originally Posted by abarber View Post
As far as adjusting for >2 people, any competent players 3-handed should be 3-betting the SB quite frequently to get the overlay from the BB (I hope this isn't confusing. I think this language has become a little more common over the years), so the opportunity to defend should be present less often. Assuming there is no 3-betting, though, I would defend only slightly fewer hands.
Yep, that isn't confusing. And of course I experience & do it a lot myself with playing lots of short handed.
So you're defending slightly less for when it's vs 2 people than when 1, right? Though in multi-way spots, I assume that some hands/spots you are defending more than you would if it was HU? Given that all of that is to just extra bet.
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Old 01-16-2016, 12:12 AM   #49
abarber
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Re: Andrew Barber's well

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Favourite TV poker clip Andrew (aside from the last hand of your WSOP win obviously)?
Good question! I think I have to be boring and go with Durrr's triple barrel vs Ivey on High Stakes Poker.

Quote:
Favourite economist? I loved Hayek and Smith.
This is a slam dunk. Gary Becker. This guy transformed the discipline, and his papers honestly make for fun reads. He was the original Freakeconomist. He's someone that I hope to emulate.

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Is economics worthy of the title of a science? Who would you consider a great economist of our time? Has it become too maths based (i.e any grand theorists still about?)
In the tournament of hard sciences, it's in danger of bubbling . The math is rigorous and the subject is governed by laws and axioms more than the soft sciences. On the other hand, it deals with human behavior. It's a close call.

Great economists of our time: Paul Krugman, Joseph Stiglitz, Daniel Kahneman, Al Roth, Thomas Piketty, George Akerlof (if you read ONE paper, read his "Market for Lemons")

It has become incredibly maths/esoteric, but that's because people need new stuff to publish. The great papers are still relatively simple, but counterintuitively, they are much tougher to write. Most of the high level math is in macroeconomics and econometric techniques, as opposed to applied microeconomics, behavioral economics, and game theory (the areas I wish to focus on).

Thanks for the questions.
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Old 01-16-2016, 12:27 AM   #50
abarber
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Re: Andrew Barber's well

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Originally Posted by deadpeddler View Post
I am 22/30 in $33 nightly plo8 on Bovada w 27 spots paying I have 15k in chips... blinds 600/1200, active chip leader opens UTG +2 to 2500.. fold around to me in the small blind with AK57 with A5 of spades, what should I do and why?
This is a close spot. I'd love more info about average stack size and stack distribution because I think it's an ICM decision. If I had to hazard a guess, I'd say it's a fold, but I could be persuaded to 3b.

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5 best fixed limit O8 players in the world in your opinion.
I hear Patrik, Gus, and Phil are all great, but I haven't played with any of them. I commentated on a 10k O8 FT with Ivey, and I thought he played way to few hands, but small sample...

Anyway, if I leave myself out, I think Scott Clements, Owais Ahmed, Frankie O'Dell, Shirley Rosario are all really strong. I'm sure I'm forgetting someone, but those were on my mind.

I had to Google to remember the online heroes I played with: what is 7x6?, Michael Scarne, Glazed, and Lacey Duvalle were all crushers.

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Thanks for doing this, loved watching you and Harrington10 go at it at WSOP.. glad you busted him...
It's been my pleasure. Yeah, I'll never understand why Jared acted the way he did. I asked everyone afterward about our exchange, and thankfully, everyone thought he was out of line and that I handled it well.
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