Hello,

I have a simple question for the forum. I am a part time rec, and play O8 MTTs mostly on the weekends. I have made 6 final tables recently which is great, but the problem is I cannot seem to get past this point. 6 of 6 times I got my chips in great post flop (between 65% and 85% equity) and 6 of 6 times I got swept. In every instance I was out of position, bet 50% of pot and then got jammed on by villain. I considered carefully each time before calling off. I prefer to play a less volatile game, but realize that in some spots I just need to get it in and hope. The very annoying thing is that all 6 times my loss made villain the chip leader, and all 6 times they went on to finish top 2.

So what do I need to do to make my breakthrough? Is it just a matter of "My time will come"? I am really distressed and heartbroken that I cannot seem to get past this point, especially since the money increases so rapidly up top. It also distresses me because I see these big stacks (mostly Russian) shoving all in literally hand after hand and they never seem to lose, they split at worst. I play a solid game, try to avoid any all in pre-flop plays, and when I hit a flop, I bet it out strongly.

Thanks in advance for any advice you guys can give.

Which stakes/format are you playing? I can say something about micro MTTs, but it might not apply to you.

I used to do the same. Thinking something like "I haven't played a good game for the last 3 hours, just to gamble with Mr. 778Q". Today, I am getting excited, when I see a "bigstack" bully the table around. I wait for a hand, where I think, it has a significant advantage over the hands he's stealing with and just call it off. Preflop All-Ins also have some advantages: You don't have to worry about your hands playability, your position etc.

But I think the most important point is: You can't win a tournament by simply outlasting all the people. You have to be all-in and win the all-in at some point. So you should be actively looking for an opportunity to double up. A player that steals too much is such an opportunity.

Obviously there is a bit more to it, like stage of the tournament, ICM considerations, who is behind you, etc.

I realize that cash and mitts are worlds apart however I can empathize with you on nearly every level. If I had one penny for the cash pots that went the same way I would be way ahead of my current roll. I love pl08 but it truly seems to BE the game of idiots when everyone knows that it is very complicated. My only advice is the same, that in a tourney situation you should consider some of the gamble situations and go for them. I don't pretend to understand why becAuse I am VERY measured in my game. And yes, I have considered whether that was the exact problem. The only real advice I guess is to have at least a pair when it goes in otf. It makes a difference as it is actually ahead of the monster draw. At the time anyway. Good luck. I hear ya.

it's actually irrelevant what your current hand is in any hand of poker, no matter what the variant is, even if it is currently the best hand

what truly matters is your equity or chance to to win and that you are investing chips when you have the the best of it (including when you are not the favourite to win but are getting a favourable pot odds price to call) and avoiding those investments when you don't.

for example in Omaha it's possible to have the current nuts (usually a straight) but be a severe underdog.

if you were to sit with me and deal out turns and rivers and bet £10 a hand where you have top pair only with a rainbow starting hand and i have flush draw, wrap and 2nd pair, i would be making a lot of money off you, because i'd probably be in the region of 3 or 4 to 1 favourite every time (thats a guess)

here's a sim (omaha high only):

ProPokerTools Omaha Hi Simulation

820 trials (Exhaustive)

board: T73

Hand	Pot equity	Wins	Ties
8976	75.30%	613	9
AT62	24.70%	198	9

Its hard to know how well the hands were played without all details, also whether hero was playing other hands prior to bustout properly.

The most relevant detail not covered in op was stack size relative to blind/antes.

But it sounds like hero is running below ev.

Stop losing flips?

Pretty much the answer.

If you truly are getting your money in as a 65 or 85% favourite, the only thing wrong with your game is that you're getting unlucky.

That part isn't up to you. Just keep playing and you'll eventually have your breakthrough.

Poker is a long term game when it comes to seeing your equities come true. The problem with most poker players, is that they think they get to dictate what length of time "long term" actually is.

Just keep playing well, and don't let short term results affect your long term game plan.

Thank you all very much for the helpful replies. You have all contributed helpful, constructive comments.

One point that has been raised is that maybe I need to loosen up a little bit. I am definitely finding that I am almost always the smallest or small stack at the final tables I have made. It seems like I am always just "hanging on" rather than being aggressive and pressing the other players. But it does kind of run both ways I think. A) Positive in that I am actually able to make a final table from between 150-300 players. B) Negative in that I am never one of the big stacks heading into the final stage. Any comments or suggestions about this?

My stack size has always been on the short side with between 10-15BB, while the leaders had 50++.

I am talking micro MTTs by the way.

DingusEgg, I have read through some of the archives about the number hands required to get a true sense of how one is running. I am just a rec, player so how many final tables do I need to make to get my breakthrough for a top 2 finish? I would have thought that 6 times would be a least a decent sample size to get a sense, but I also realize that I can run well below (as well as above) EV for an extended period. If I make 6 more final tables and don't make a top 2 finish is that the sign that I need to make some significant change to my game?

Is it unrealistic or relying too much on luck top make a final table as the smallest stack and hope to catch some cards and run good? Obviously having a huge stack or being the chip leader is the preferred way to finish well, but do I need to play a bit looser and gamble in the run up to the final table? Do I start to take shots with 20 players left? 15 players?

I know that most of what I am asking is completely situational, but I also think there must be some basic rules/ideas/strategies that will help me get there.

Once again, thank you all. I sincerely appreciate the insights, and will work towards applying them in my quest to improve and make my breakthrough.

My opinion doesn't necessarily reflect optimal play, but I do speak from micro experience (3x first, 1x first/tie, 3x second and another 5x 3rd over the last 200 tourneys)

1) When you are shortstacked, there are no half pot sized value bets. You either have a hand, that you want to go with or you don't.
Reasons: If you like your hand enough, you want to extract maximum value. Both your opponents folding their half of the pot and not being able to fold a turn/river they don't like are more beneficial to you, then whatever bet you are doing.
A lot of chips are made with sth like a small bet - small bet - big bet pattern, where you take advantage that your opponent can't easily call for half. If you are shortstacked, you can't do this, because you are all-in on the turn anways, so take advantage of what little fold equity is left and getin on the flop/pre or fold.
Additionally the getin play has the advantage that you can't make anymore mistakes (like folding the best hand for example) and it neutralizes that you are out of position.

2) The shorter you are the more likely your hand has to win at showdown and the more often you have to double up. Even splitting the pot can be beneficial to you.
For example: You are sitting on 5BB, assuming an ante of 10%, the pot is 1,5+0,6 BB bar any action. Let's assume, one guy limps and you decide to shove over him, rest of the table folds. He calls and you end up splitting. In this case, you won 1,05 BB for a whopping 20% increase in stacksize. Additionally (especially in bounty tourneys) there are some dynamics, where one big stack forces the other big stack out of the pot and makes you win one side, which you normally wouldn't have.
At the final table however, people are more inclined to call and check you down, because eliminating another player is so beneficial to everyone.

3) You don't have to put pressure on other players, but you need to defend against overly aggressive players (Which I encounter often at the micros). If you don't, they will slowly chip away at your stack, until you are so short, that they can easily afford to take flips with you.
If you have something like an 65-80% equity edge over your opponent you are pretty much crushing him and it doesn't matter, wether you have this edge preflop, on the flop or on the turn, aslong as the betting is finished by then. Yes, you will lose a decent amount of the time, but you are still making good bets that will win in the long run.

I suggest reading Harrington's "On Hold'em". While it isn't about Omaha Hi/Lo it covers a lot of general principles and ideas that apply to Tournament Poker.

Caterina,

Thank you. I have read a few books, the best being Super System, even though it is quite old.

It is just becoming so incredibly frustrating for me. I made yet another final table (over 300 players and 5 hours) and this time was a top 3 stack with 25BB, 1st and 2nd had about 30BB. I got dealt AAK2 double suited on the button. Folded around to me, I raised 3X and got called by the small blind (#1 stack) and the big blind (#2 stack). The flop came AK3 rainbow. It was checked to me, and I bet 75% pot. I got called by the small blind then the big blind jammed all in. I called and the small blind called. The small blind was basically dead and I was 50/50 with the big blind who had 4579. Of course a 2 came on the turn with a river blank and I yet again bowed out in 6th place.

I just cannot win any of these hands at the final table...............

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in my opinion was the best answer.
65-85% in Omaha8 means you should crush your opponents in long term.
There is no way in a tournaments to avoid flips and you need all in situations to build a big Stack and come at least in the top 3.
I wish I had always 65-85% Equity when I'm all in.

If you play NLO8 you can't win any tournaments without gambling preflop; you must shove yourself often for stealing/value with very good hands which you think could stand a showdown when called and call with good hands or against players who you put on a wide range. No risk no fun!!

If you don't like this gambling preflop and get frustrated because you' re unlucky, you should play only PLO8, where preflop All ins happen almost never, and you can play your game on multiple streets and avoid coin flips before the flop.

PS: The "equity versus ranges of hands" Tables in Dan Deppen's book were very helpful for me; is a PLO8 book, but it was very useful for my NLO8 preflop game too.