15/30 game, 8 players dealt cards.

V1 is a reg rec, limps most of his range, and sometimes raise more premium aa, a2, not limping garbage but will nonlimp a rundowns like 23xx 34xx sometimes and medium pairs.
V2 can be a splashy reg, playing bad hands preflop when the mood strikes, but is competent postflop, and capable of making advanced bluffs.
V3 is a disciplined tag, but on the less experienced side.
Hero is known as a strong, agressive player, winning player, and should be viewed as the 'best' player in the game.

Preflop:
Villain 1 and 2 limp, i overlimp the button with ah2d9d2c

Villain 3 raises from the sb, bb folds and other players all call. 4 players to the flop (135).

Flop is qh7h4d, checks around, and i opt to check back - if anyone prefers a bet, please share your reasoning.

Turn is qd. V3 leads from the sb, v2 raises and i have a tricky decision having picked up a non-nut flush draw to go along with the nut lo. I view the odds of either opponent having a boat as less than 2%, perhaps lower.

Enjoy.

Why?

Player from sb has been straightforward and generally will want to protect from various draws on this texture. And it would be unusual for other player not to go for value with only one player left to act and such a strong hand on this texture. My live read was also that neither seemer particularly strong / trying to trap.

2nd player does not always get a lot of respect postflop, so doesnt slowplay much with top of the range

you have 16 outs to the nut low, but are drawing for half the pot, and maybe for just one quarter or one sixth.


7:2 but probably 8:2 or it gets reraised. we know 8 cards so 44 remaining, we like 16 and dislike 28. so almost 2:1 against improving, and we're playing for half the pot. we could win perhaps with a flush, or a tight, but we could also "improve" to a tight or flush and pay off on the river. and we can get quartered. and it might end up being three or four bets on the turn.

I say fold.

Having two 2's makes me wanna call a lot more than just having 1. FWIW

What did V1 do?
I will assume they folded since they weren't mentioned on the turn.

Bet the flop:
1) It is a cheap price on the flop to buy outs from position
2) You have the dry ace which helps with buying the outs
3) Most importantly it may get you a free card on the turn
4) You may learn something cheap

Fold on the turn:
1) You have little invested
2) You are very unlikely to scoop
3) If you call it may get quite expensive
4) You very well may be only drawing to a quartering

Where is this game?

Yes v1 folded

Having the nut flush blocker made me less inclined to bet flop, as I increase the chances of generating incorrect folds in a smaller pot. Betting is certainly a reasonable option though. I also thought my checkback helper keep my hand disguised, as I am raising most a2xx from the button in a limped pot.

Could you explain this?

Sure, in smaller pots players will call down with stronger hands, while in large pots they get much better odds to bluff catch. So by checking back i can improve my chances of representing the heart flush on another heart via betting or bluff-raising. Of course, that is not a huge opportunity on many run outs (i still need to decide that bluffing or semibluffing is profitable, not do it automatically), but for a hand like mine with very limited high hand potential, adding any chance to win without showdown is pretty nice.

It’s hard for you to rep the nut flush after a flop check back though.

I opt for a raise preflop with this hand, but I don't mind the way you played it. I say I probably limp this hand on the button 10% and raise 90%...

When it's checked to me postflop (in this scenario), I'm almost always betting here for a few reasons: You have the nut flush blocker, a backdoor flush draw, the nut low draw that possibly isn't getting quartered, and you take control of the betting (giving you the option to check paired turns, etc.).

Really, that last point is the main reason to bet the flop. I feel like if you DO bet flop, and someone STILL leads turn, you're probably only facing 1 bet opposed to 2, and the pot odds are more in the favor of calling turn to try and hit a low or a weird flush (that may be good a small amount of the time).

Flop seems close and interesting. But I slightly prefer a bet. I think the value on the low side and chance to fold out better bd diamonds is better than whatever we pick up in heart bluff ops. Which you acknowledge as infrequent and so is the diamonds part.

As played I tend to call turn.

Yes, I agree. I would certainly bet the nut flush draw here most of the time, though these opponents should have a weaker range awareness. Checkback still lets me rep non nut flushes easier though.

Munga, good point about folding out better bd diamonds, i did not consider that.

On this flop texture, I think you rep flush more by checking flop and betting heart turn than betting flop and turn (as opposed to flop like 8h9hKs).

So I like this if that is your intention. But I’m maybe not as optimistic as some that you have much fold equity on this flop.

Mostly just a math problem, roll up the sleeves and crunch the numbers

First assume all of your outs are good. Don’t forget about a deuce on river which is highly likely to be best hand.

Then see how sensitive the situation is when outs are dirty and will be chopped

Then assess based upon how likely everyone is to be holding certain hands. This is the educated guesswork part but you can more than likely draw conclusions based upon how sensitive the profitability is on how often your outs are dirty or split.

Seems like a decent chance say 80% at least that you hold the only a2 based upon removal and play of hand. Much less optimistic on diamonds. If one villain isn’t raising a queen he probably has diamonds. So some reverse implied and trip queens can fill up while you make a flush. Slightly offset by two deuces that are probably left though.

I agree with about 80% chance you have the only A2 draw.

So you're drawing to 50% the pot if you have the only A2. Sure, a flush could be good but some of the diamonds have to be dirty and it's only a 9 high. Imo banking on a flush here is not great.

So its 60$ to you with 225$ in the pot. How often does it get raised behind you?

Seems like a fold. I think it becomes an easier decision if you had bet the flop.

Keep in mind that you likely win the high if the river is a 2. This only adds about 2% to your equity, but it may well be enough to justify a call.

That's a good point. A 2 could grab you the high, but you're still only going to win half the pot the times that one of them doesn't already have a house.

If you are the 'best player' like you claim to be viewed as I think you'll see spots that the decision is more clear as how to proceed against this line up.

Result:

I tank folded, v3 put in a 3rd bet and was called. River was a 9 no flush, both villains checked.

V3 scoops with something like aq38, other villain had something like q665. Neither had a heart flush draw or diamond draw. My total equity was about 30% so folding was a small mistake, but my average equity should be lower, and river has some reverse implied odds.

Thanks for the feedback everyone.

As played it is prob not too much difference to call or fold turn.

Crazy as it sounds, is this ever a fold pre-fop? In PLO8/Big O not having the suited ace doesn't allow you to bring the heat or take a lot of heat when people are making big bets.

In limit it seems you can try and win the high should back door diamonds get there if you folded out a hand with all high cards and back door diamonds on the flop with a bet as well as sometimes winning with a deuce for trip 2's when you get counterfeited vs a hand like A247.

Sometimes I'll factor in calling/folding turn based on who has been winning/losing recently. Sick but true that table dynamics like that can affect how the next few hands go down in/against your favor.

No.

I agree with those that said to bet the flop - especially for a chance at a free card on the turn.

One of things to consider is your table image - IMO. As a strong aggressive player, you should bet the flop to rep hearts. If a heart comes it gives you a better chance to win with a bluff. As mentioned, it could also push out weaker diamonds.
If a Heart or Diamond hits on the turn - as long as it didn't pair the board - I'm betting. Then depending on the river and action, your decision on what to do.


I think that is consistent with your table image as described.

Arguments for betting flop:
1) value: you almost certainly have only nld and will get calls from low draws you dominate
2) control/initiative/pot control: opponents will likely check almost all turns to allowing you to play perfectly/avoid tough spots (like the one faced)
3) bluff “equity” on heart runouts.


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I like the call preflop. I like the check on the flop. I would fold the turn.
We are basically playing for the low only, and still have a chance to get quartered since our hi possibilities are pretty bad. So I'd fold without any regrets. And of course, vilain who opened the action might raise, and we would be trapped between both vilains.

What confuses me is that in your OP you said you believed there was almost zero chance either villain already had a full house. If your read is correct, I think this is a clear call. If neither opponent has a boat, it is very unlikely you will get whipsawed on the turn. And given that, you clearly have pot odds to call, even after slightly discounting your low outs and even more deeply discounting your flush outs.

And yet you folded. Is it possible that you didn't actually believe that in the moment, but have since updated your read based on the the results? Because your read and your action seem inconsistent.

It seems like most people in this thread are advising a fold. And I don't necessarily believe that's wrong. But I do think anyone advocating folding is implicitly disbelieving your read.