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Old 08-20-2017, 01:41 PM   #1
DMoogle
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75/150 Two pair keeps improving vs. pro

5-handed game as part of an 8-game mix. Villain seems like a very solid player in all games, probably a professional. He might be the best player at the table. I've been playing with him for the past 2 days, he (hopefully) thinks I'm solid as well. We've been playing for about 8 hours, game has died down a little, but neither of us has been out of line. He might think I'm a little on the nittier side, but I've been aggressive throughout. However, he's had his eyes glued playing online on his iPad most of the night, so I'm not sure how much he's been paying attention to hands that he's not involved in.

Hero is dealt AJT5 in BB.

Preflop:
UTG folds, CO folds, BTN raises, SB folds, I call.
This seems like a slightly loose defense, but probably standard, right? If he opened in the CO, might lean towards a fold. Correct?

Flop (2 players):
KT5
Hero checks, BTN bets, Hero raises, BTN calls
Seems standard

Turn:
A
Hero bets, BTN calls
Not the best card, but I'm still likely ahead and can't be far behind, so seems standard.

River:
6
Hero checks with the intention of calling.

My thinking was that, even though I hit my flush, a K-high or Q-high flush is certainly in his range. A straight would've raised the turn, a two pair is probably folding to my bet, but if he has any low then I think he'll call. So I have no fold equity against any low, and I can't think there are any worse high hands that pay me off. It's very difficult for him to have a worse flush without a low. And if I bet and get raised I'm in trouble. So, I check.

I'm kinda new to O8. Thoughts?
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Old 08-20-2017, 01:48 PM   #2
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Re: 75/150 Two pair keeps improving vs. pro

I rarely comment on fixed o8, but... lol, bet.
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Old 08-20-2017, 04:11 PM   #3
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Re: 75/150 Two pair keeps improving vs. pro

Yeah you have to bet there. The amount of times he just has 2 pair or a set with a counterfeited low or one that isn't good enough to call far outweighs the rare occasion he shows you K or Q high flush there.
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Old 08-20-2017, 06:10 PM   #4
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Re: 75/150 Two pair keeps improving vs. pro

Bet river call if raised at the low stakes...
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Old 08-20-2017, 09:43 PM   #5
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Re: 75/150 Two pair keeps improving vs. pro

Do you consider 75/150 low stakes? Or were you just incapable of reading the thread title?
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Old 08-20-2017, 09:46 PM   #6
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Re: 75/150 Two pair keeps improving vs. pro

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Originally Posted by Czar Chasm View Post
Do you consider 75/150 low stakes? Or were you just incapable of reading the thread title?

Both, I can neither read nor can I count to 150.

Cheers.
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Old 08-21-2017, 12:33 AM   #7
monikrazy
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Re: 75/150 Two pair keeps improving vs. pro

bet river as played, 5_handed I think this is probably a raise preflop as well

Would sometimes check turn as well
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Old 08-21-2017, 11:56 AM   #8
RichGangi
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Re: 75/150 Two pair keeps improving vs. pro

Everything standard except river check. Must bet.
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Old 08-21-2017, 12:42 PM   #9
LUCIUS VARENUS
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Re: 75/150 Two pair keeps improving vs. pro

CONSIDER that a river bet allows the villain to make a folding mistake, for example he may fold a very bad low hand, or may decide that a queen flush is no good and fold that.

Maybe it's optimistic.

But also it is possible he makes a calling mistake, or even raising mistake, if you bet.

Poker is much about the exploitation of mistakes, and in any given situation, if you can evaluate the propensity for your opponent to make the most mistakes you can conclude the best action to take

In my opinion checking will not induce as many mistakes, because it is clear to anyone who has a decent amount of experience in limit O8 that you will not fold to a bet with any hand that you took this line with. I'd wager the villain, playing 75/150, probably has that level of experience. So basically he will seldom make a mistake in this situation and therefore: betting is better.
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Old 08-21-2017, 01:32 PM   #10
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Re: 75/150 Two pair keeps improving vs. pro

i find on a flop like KT5 you'll get all kinds of lookups on the high side if you bet the river. like i can understand trying to get value out of a bluff or something but this is limit. people will check too much because they know you won't fold for one more bet, and on top of that a low and a flush is possibly out there so there isn't much for a bluff to fold out. but there is plenty for a guy to make a crying call. so end on end, just bet. people are going to be calling with ALL kinds of **** here and they will pay you off.

also pre i'm not folding HU ever to a button raise, nor am i folding HU to a CO raise. this hand is more than navigable in any HU situation with some experience.
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Old 08-21-2017, 03:27 PM   #11
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Re: 75/150 Two pair keeps improving vs. pro

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Originally Posted by LUCIUS VARENUS View Post
or may decide that a queen flush is no good and fold that.
Wat? I would be absolutely shocked if anyone in the history of LO8 who has any clue and doesn't misread their hand has ever folded a runner runner 2nd nut flush on an unpaired board HU on the river getting 7-1. Pretty ridiculous thing to suggest. Any flush at all there is at least a snap call for villain, if not a raise.
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Old 08-21-2017, 09:34 PM   #12
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Re: 75/150 Two pair keeps improving vs. pro

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Wat? I would be absolutely shocked if anyone in the history of LO8 who has any clue and doesn't misread their hand has ever folded a runner runner 2nd nut flush on an unpaired board HU on the river getting 7-1. Pretty ridiculous thing to suggest. Any flush at all there is at least a snap call for villain, if not a raise.
Yes I am aware it seems an absurd suggestion but for example the opponent can misclick or misread their hand.

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Old 08-22-2017, 05:12 AM   #13
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Re: 75/150 Two pair keeps improving vs. pro

This is a BB defense vs an open from any position
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Old 08-23-2017, 01:15 AM   #14
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Re: 75/150 Two pair keeps improving vs. pro

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Wat? I would be absolutely shocked if anyone in the history of LO8 who has any clue and doesn't misread their hand has ever folded a runner runner 2nd nut flush on an unpaired board HU on the river getting 7-1. Pretty ridiculous thing to suggest. Any flush at all there is at least a snap call for villain, if not a raise.
This is live poker; anything can happen. Villain has been playing in this game for 8 hours and has also been playing on his iPad. He may be a pro, but he's human—and therefore capable of making mistakes.

Let's say he has A26Q. On the flop, he recognizes the gutshot Broadway draw, the backdoor low draw, the backdoor wheel draw, and the backdoor nut flush draw; but he doesn't see the other backdoor flush draw and never rechecks his cards (maybe he misread his hand from the start and thought he had three hearts). Then when he makes the second-nut flush on the river, he's so exasperated that both his Ace and his backup low card got counterfeited that he insta-mucks to Hero's bet.

Yes, that would be a huge mistake, and it won't happen often. But, as LUCIUS said, Hero has to bet to induce and therefore exploit such a mistake.

What if Villain has AA38—the river gives him a low, right? It is the 8th-best low, but folding it in this spot would be a mistake. Again, Hero has to bet to induce/exploit such a mistake.
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Old 08-23-2017, 01:21 AM   #15
kisada
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Re: 75/150 Two pair keeps improving vs. pro

sometimes people misclick online and sometimes people misclick in their brain in live play.

weird stuff happens. it's poker
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Old 08-23-2017, 01:38 AM   #16
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Re: 75/150 Two pair keeps improving vs. pro

Sorry guys but you are really reaching here. A very solid, probably professional player is not misreading his hand often enough for it to be a factor in betting decisions. Especially live when it's just one table at a snail's pace.
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Old 08-23-2017, 05:10 AM   #17
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Re: 75/150 Two pair keeps improving vs. pro

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Originally Posted by Czar Chasm View Post
Sorry guys but you are really reaching here. A very solid, probably professional player is not misreading his hand...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A2VZbgoayNk
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Old 08-23-2017, 06:02 AM   #18
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Re: 75/150 Two pair keeps improving vs. pro

Thanks for cutting off my post at the most relevant part. "Often enough for it to be a factor in betting decisions."

I mean you might as well bet rivers for the off chance that your villain suffers a heart attack before he can call if you're going to hope for ridiculous longshots like that to come into play.
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Old 08-23-2017, 08:54 AM   #19
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Re: 75/150 Two pair keeps improving vs. pro

Yup, phenomenal logic here. Let's bet because he might misread his hand.
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Old 08-23-2017, 09:19 AM   #20
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Re: 75/150 Two pair keeps improving vs. pro

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Originally Posted by Czar Chasm View Post
I mean you might as well bet rivers for the off chance that your villain suffers a heart attack before he can call if you're going to hope for ridiculous longshots like that to come into play.
This is a problem though, because if he falls so that his cards land on the table face up, he'll still get awarded the pot. Even though he's dead.
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Old 08-24-2017, 01:04 AM   #21
NedSchneebly
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Re: 75/150 Two pair keeps improving vs. pro

standard. I'd call basically any 4 cards in bb hu
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Old 08-24-2017, 12:52 PM   #22
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Re: 75/150 Two pair keeps improving vs. pro

To reinforce what most others posters are saying, you should bet/call the river.

But check/calling the river is not that big a deal. A much bigger deal is your preflop thinking.

This hand isn't close to a fold in the BB against a heads-up raise from any position. It will depend sligtly on opponent type and position, but I'm defending about 95% of hands heads-up in the big blind. Giving any thought to folding a hand this strong will cost you more money than any mistake you're likely to make postflop.
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Old 08-27-2017, 07:13 PM   #23
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Re: 75/150 Two pair keeps improving vs. pro

I think you played it fine, and it's def a river bet here. I'm wondering if this hand was against me, SMW on ACR? I highly doubt your image is "nitty" if you are who I think you are. Definitely LAG imo
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Old 08-27-2017, 09:31 PM   #24
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Re: 75/150 Two pair keeps improving vs. pro

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I think you played it fine, and it's def a river bet here. I'm wondering if this hand was against me, SMW on ACR? I highly doubt your image is "nitty" if you are who I think you are. Definitely LAG imo
No this was in a live game. However, I just started playing on ACR recently, so we'll probably bump together at some point.
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Old 08-28-2017, 04:57 AM   #25
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Re: 75/150 Two pair keeps improving vs. pro

I will add something not commented on. If he's a very good player I think flop checkraise is quite bad. He is going to check back this flop a lot so his bet is meaningful and your hand isn't that good. I would lead flop
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