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Old 09-11-2009, 04:00 PM   #1
LUCIUS VARENUS
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Spade $5/$10 6Max Limit - SB OpenSteal With AQJ8

Full Tilt Poker $5/$10 Limit Omaha Hi/Lo - 6 players
The Official 2+2 Hand Converter Powered By DeucesCracked.com

Pre Flop: (1.5 SB) Hero is SB with 8 Q A J
4 folds, Hero raises, BB calls

Flop: (4 SB) 3 T 5 (2 players)
Hero bets, BB calls

Turn: (3 BB) 2 (2 players)
Hero checks, BB checks

River: (3 BB) Q (2 players)
Hero bets, BB raises, Hero calls

Spoiler:


This was one of my
Spoiler:
hands from my one-off shot-taking at $5/$10 FL following the MiniFTOPS FLO8 event. Thought it might be worth discussing.

At this point prior to the hand I am up $160, I feel I have a strong image and am getting some respect. The player to my left is I feel the only other competent player relatively. He is sitting on around $100 - I don't know if that says anything about him but initially I thought it meant he might not be any good.

Anyway, I open raise from the SB with AQJ8. I think that is perfectly standard because its an above average hand which rates to be better than BB's starting hand. Agree?

On the flop I think I made a mistake. My hand has no value now but that's not all why I think betting is a mistake. Really my bet here is a bet that he has not hit the flop. That's obviously a bad bet because there's a flush draw and two wheel cards. Most likely he hit it reasonably well even with some bad holdings. He most likely hit it better than me. If I bet here I should expect to get called. That's why its a bad bet.

I think thats an important thing worth discussing because I frequently see players cbet all and every flop with any hand after raising, especially on a steal. I did this too for a long time but now I think its a bad idea and shows a bad understanding of flop textures vs fits for your opponent. Do you adjust for what the flop is, whether you c-bet or not (bad English)? I feel like you can save and make a lot of money by doing so and it will give you the 1-Up on your opponents. On the other hand, when you are against a single opponent, you need to be aggressive very often.

The turn is also worthy of note IMO. My check is representing that I raised preflop, had an A2 kind of hand, now I got counterfeited. Also it could just mean I am giving up on the hand. But I know that actually there is a reasonable chance I can continue because my A8 low can be good a significant enough amount of the time against one player. The 2 on the turn may have equally been "painful" for him, giving me the best low. I expect the other guy to bet here. But he doesn't. Which makes me feel my A8 low is good. I think when you see his hand he made an excellent play which got me to lose far more than I should've. If he had bet I would actually have called, hoping to spike a pair of queens or jacks or a pair on the board and for there to not be another low card. I am willing to check/fold a lot of rivers.

The river gives me a pair but also completes the flush its not one of those rivers I am check/folding. I feel like that actually may give me the best hand for high with top pair - remember top pair is frequently good against one opponent. Also its a scary card which can get him off of two pair perhaps. And maybe I don't have the best low and that card saved me for the high. That's why I bet - I feel there is a reasonable chance I can win at least half the pot if I get called and also bluff him off of better highs/lows. When I get raised I feel I have to call since he might not have a low with a flush. Also I took a while to bet, longer than the time to bet in other hands, which may have induced him to raise. He might have a better low like an A6 with no flush, freerolling to a bluff.

Sorry if you don't think this is that interesting of a hand - I thought discussing a very marginal situation could be beneficial to everyone. Too often we are talking about proceeding value with the nuts and strong hands and simply telling posters who have marginal spots that they play bad! I think it is possible to play marginal hands for value and maybe the best players are those who do this well. So I am looking to always improve that area of my game.
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Old 09-11-2009, 06:48 PM   #2
Gar Pike
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Re: $5/$10 6Max Limit - SB OpenSteal With AQJ8

Hi, Lucuis

I think the only value you are getting from your river bet is to create an image of yourself in your opponents' mind that is misleading.

If your plan is to use that image later, then good.

The line you used is one I like when I think I have the best hand, because I think it will induce a raise on the river from a worse hand. I really don't like inducing a raise when I have not much strength.

I would have to know that Villian is creative and agressive, to think there was any other value in calling his raise.

Did you think of all you wrote while you were playing?

Regards

Gar
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Old 09-11-2009, 06:52 PM   #3
wackjob
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Re: $5/$10 6Max Limit - SB OpenSteal With AQJ8

standard! well, maybe not. definitely a standard way I used to piss away chips, however.

first off, I think this is not a stellar hand to raise with. blind wars in O8 are funky. I see soo many players defending w/utter garbage and constantly winning. That doesn't mean we shouldn't raise an above average hand. but your hand is a hit-or-miss sort of hand. you either flop big cards/flush draws or you can't really continue. this is fine for me, except that two things in this particular scenario are really bad for you. first, you are out of position. second, you are playing a reasonably good opponent. I hate playing marginally decent fit/fold hands OOP, and especially against a good player. seems nitty, but I think a pre-flop fold is not awful. I also think you can limp this sometimes. all that said, I don't think that fold/limp/raise - any of the 3, are really bad or really good.

flop - you nailed it in your own evaluation. c/f for teh win! against some foldy opponents, a c-bet would be just fine. if I bet this flop and get any action, I am going to play very carefully for the rest of the hand. raised on this flop is an insta-muck. called on this flop and I will for sure check the turn and fold to almost any turn bet.

turn - I think my normal line is to c/f here. I honestly think you will never fold anyone by bluffing. if villain bet when checked to on turn, insta-muck.

river - if I have decided to showdown, I am not going to bet this river. if I haven't decided to showdown, I think b/f could be ok, but I think b/c is the worst option. me personally, I have a really weak 2-way hand and I want to showdown because I am HU (and for meta game reasons) so I would c/c.

in the end I think you screwed the pooch on 3/4 decisions. only good play was probably to check the turn.

Last edited by wackjob; 09-11-2009 at 06:53 PM. Reason: .
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Old 09-11-2009, 07:23 PM   #4
Buzz
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Re: $5/$10 6Max Limit - SB OpenSteal With AQJ8

Quote:
Originally Posted by LUCIUS VARENUS View Post
Full Tilt Poker $5/$10 Limit Omaha Hi/Lo - 6 players
The Official 2+2 Hand Converter Powered By DeucesCracked.com

Pre Flop: (1.5 SB) Hero is SB with 8 Q A J
4 folds, Hero raises,
Seems reasonable to try a steal.

Although I think your hand is -e.v. for six handed, if you were heads-up, you'd have a +e.v. hand. After four opponents fold, the situation is not exactly the same as if those four opponents had not been dealt hands they folded. That's because they're more likely to have folded hands with unfavorable two-card combinations than hands with favorable two-card combinations (AA, A2, A3, A4, AK, KK, and various other wheel combinations and high card combinations). That means the portion of the deck from which BB's cards are chosen is more likely to have these more favorable card combinations. And that means BB's cards are more likely to contain favorable two-card combinations. For example, BB is more likely (than without the four folds) to have various ace-X combinations, ace-four, for example.

Even so, it seems reasonable to try a steal here.

Quote:
BB calls
But then BB calls.

Alas.

Now, although you'd probably have a better starting hand than someone dealt four random cards, you don't necessarily (indeed, probably don't) have a better starting hand the someone who was dealt the best hand of five opponents - which is what BB, the only one of the five to continue, might well have.

Ugh. The situation is you're out of position against very possibly a better starting hand.

Even so, things might work out. You never know in Omaha-8.

Quote:
Flop: (4 SB) 3 T 5 (2 players)
This is a horrid flop for Hero. A poor low and a worse high. But if you check, BB will probably bet. And then you won't know exactly what to do. On the other hand, if you make a continuation bet, BB may fold.

Quote:
Hero bets, BB calls
O.K., so you bet and BB doesn't fold.

Ugh. At this point you have to wish you hadn't bet at all.

I haven't read your thoughts on this hand yet. I'll write my own thoughts and then respond to yours.

BB could easily have A2YZ, A4YZ, 24YZ or 46YZ, any one of them with diamonds. BB could have some combination of those hands.

Once BB calls your flop raise with your particular starting hand, after this flop, and probably most flops, assuming BB is a decent player, I think you're screwed.

Quote:
Turn: (3 BB) 2 (2 players)
Hero checks, BB checks
You check. BB checks. You're still screwed. At this point BB could be slow playing a wheel or 6-high-straight. You're still going to be out of position on the next betting round. You'll almost have to call a last round bet, and if BB has you figured for aggressive, he might think he can get two big bets out of you on the last betting round.

Quote:
River: (3 BB) Q (2 players)
Hero bets,
This is a horrid river card for Hero. BB, with or without the diamond flush is not going away here.

In my humble opinion, you're playing this river too over-aggressively.

Quote:
BB raises, Hero calls
Seems right.

I'm not looking at your results in the spoiler. I'm not planning to look at the results in the spoiler.

Quote:
At this point prior to the hand I am up $160, I feel I have a strong image and am getting some respect. The player to my left is I feel the only other competent player relatively. He is sitting on around $100 - I don't know if that says anything about him but initially I thought it meant he might not be any good.

Anyway, I open raise from the SB with AQJ8. I think that is perfectly standard because its an above average hand which rates to be better than BB's starting hand. Agree?
I don't agree than your starting hand rates, after the four folds, to be necessarily better than BB's starting hand. (Without the four folds, I think it would be. See my reasoning above).

Nevertheless, the raise seems fine for various other reasons. Doesn't work out here, but even so, it's not a total loss.

Quote:
If I bet here I should expect to get called. That's why its a bad bet.
I agree. You cannot want to get called and you should fully expect to get called. If you wanted to get called, it would be a fine bet.

Quote:
I frequently see players cbet all and every flop with any hand after raising, especially on a steal. I did this too for a long time but now I think its a bad idea and shows a bad understanding of flop textures vs fits for your opponent.
Yes. Omaha-8 has quite different considerations from Texas hold 'em, and even from Omaha-high. The more or less automatic c-bet after a pre-flop raise seems probably a better play in Texas hold 'em than in Omaha-8. There's just too much danger that if you don't like the flop much, your opponent does.

Quote:
Do you adjust for what the flop is
Yes. Always.

Quote:
The turn [snip] check is representing that I raised preflop, had an A2 kind of hand, now I got counterfeited. Also it could just mean I am giving up on the hand.
Yes.

Quote:
But I know that actually there is a reasonable chance I can continue because my A8 low can be good a significant enough amount of the time against one player.
Yes, but I think you have to fold if BB bets.

Instead, BB brilliantly checks behind, setting you up for a call on the river.

Quote:
The 2 on the turn may have equally been "painful" for him, giving me the best low.
It's possible.

Quote:
I expect the other guy to bet here. But he doesn't.
Really is a clever play by BB to check behind here.

Quote:
Which makes me feel my A8 low is good.
Yeah. I haven't looked at his hand, and still don't intend to look. Because of the four pre-flop folds, we can't simulate this one-on-one and get valid information. Maybe it's fairer to simulate two-on-one or one-on-one with BB holding an ace and see how often Hero ends up winning the low.

Let's say in this circumstance Hero wins low half the time. In that case Hero shows a slight profit by check/calling on the river. (But in that case Hero shows a loss if he has to commit two big bets on the river).

Quote:
The river gives me a pair but also completes the flush its not one of those rivers I am check/folding.
I think you're stuck check/calling.

Quote:
I feel like that actually may give me the best hand for high with top pair - remember top pair is frequently good against one opponent. Also its a scary card which can get him off of two pair perhaps. And maybe I don't have the best low and that card saved me for the high. That's why I bet - I feel there is a reasonable chance I can win at least half the pot if I get called and also bluff him off of better highs/lows.
I like that line of thinking. However, I think you'll tend to show a slight profit on the last betting round by check/calling and a loss by bet/calling.

You have to expect an overall loss on the hand, but you salvage a slight bit, I think, by check/calling on the river.

Quote:
When I get raised I feel I have to call since he might not have a low with a flush.
I call the last bet too, and for a variety of reasons.

Quote:
Also I took a while to bet, longer than the time to bet in other hands, which may have induced him to raise. He might have a better low like an A6 with no flush, freerolling to a bluff.
Doesn't affect my decision to call the last bet.

Quote:
I think it is possible to play marginal hands for value and maybe the best players are those who do this well.
I think so too.

Quote:
So I am looking to always improve that area of my game.
Seems right. Me too.

Buzz
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Old 09-11-2009, 11:25 PM   #5
Truthiness24
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Re: $5/$10 6Max Limit - SB OpenSteal With AQJ8

This is an easy c/c river, otherwise OK for 6max by me. You're overthinking this if you're trying to justify any other take .. unless BB is really really bad, but even then he can accidentally beat you a fair amount of the time.
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