I have less than 20 hours of exp in fixed limit games

We are the kill, so it's 15/30.

We have AcJcJh3d

Mp - old man. Has only played a few hands. Just sat down
HJ - shill/prop - played big o and PLO with him in the past
Co - good young player. Have played big o with him.
Button - hero

Several limps. We raise. All 3 villains call.

Flop:
8d9c4s
Checks to us. We bet. All 3 call.

Turn:
Tc
Checks to us. HJ bets. Co folds. We raise. Mp cold calls. HJ flats.

River:
7d
Checks to us. We bet. Mp and HJ both call.

Look ok? Is the turn raise to thin and/or optimistic?

I like it because J blockers and maybe get A2 to fold

On the river you are probly burning money but may be worth it to get paid off later

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Turn raise is spew. Eating multiple bets here is a disaster, not to mention reverse implied odds on river when our low is no good and flush loses to a boat.

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Turn and river are both spew imo. What were you thinking on these streets?

I don't like the flop bet either.

As you all know, I don't even play this game, but... why is turn raise bad? If you don't raise this hand, what are your bluffs?

Btw I'm assuming turn wasn't checked to us, although the description of actions says so.

hmm i think i'd probably bet flop here but that's something i wouldn't think twice about. i'd definitely like to hear why you don't like it.



amok i can only speak for myself but basically: A2 is virtually never folding even if you raise turn.

you also risk raising out worse FD's while whipsawing yourself into better turned high hands.

so you're in a spot where you're drawing to the second low and unless you hit a club you're folding or in a rough spot OTR with a player to act behind you. or sometimes you do hit it and you chop anyway with A2.

as far as bluffs, blockers bluffs imo are often wishful thinking, at best in LO8. while yeah you do wanna be able to bluff, this is just a spot where a set or even a strong 2p is virtually never folding, let alone a straight. i don't really see it as a great bluff spot.

Thanks for the answer. Yeah I kinda understand that turn raise isn't going to win the hand right there, but do people ever fold two pair on the river to blanks or pairing cards (that don't make them a boat)? If not, I guess there isn't really sense in bluffing.

it's funny because i just now remembered that i almost literally played a hand really similar to this. i had JJ blockers and decided to raise turn and bet riv in a 40/80 game and the guy called me with bare aces. and my image back then was always as a TAG who didn't really bluff, and i'm 100% positive the guy had never seen me make a failed bluff.

i guess my point is people come up with all kinds of reasons to call. i think in an online environment i see this kind of hand get looked up all the time with 2p+, partly because people can semi-bluff so frequently on the turn, or raise non-straights for protection, and value-bet so thinly OTR. people just don't like to fold 2p+ when that turn raise rationale can be so open-ended and the river now makes a non-club low.

You have no hand, and no draw for high. You have second nut low draw, but the old guy could easily have A2 or another A3. Betting the flop is much less likely to allow you to take a free card on the turn than in a similar spot in LHE.

mmm yeah think i am agreeing there, esp since i forgot hand was 4-way OTF.

think i was imagining more in online situations where you're HU or 3-way even where ranges are a lot wider.

are you checking back QQ also? think KK seems like a good bet here at the very least.

I don't really think QQ or KK have much additional equity here. It's very rare that either would be the best hand on this flop with 3 other players.

Your preflop raise seems speculative to me. Are you raising to get the blinds to fold or to build a pot in which you believe you have an equity advantage?

You need to flop a Jack, a deuce plus another nonpairing low card, a flush/flush draw, or Broadway to continue to bet (or something unlikely like trip Aces or Treys). You didn't flop any of these things, so why are you C-betting? I'm not surprised that all three of your opponents called a single bet on this flop in a raised pot.

What do you think the prop has when he bets the turn? I think he has the nut straight a high percentage of the time, maybe the second- or third-nut straight with a redraw some of the time. In my experience, props play very cautiously. I don't see him betting a set in this spot, for example.

As kisada said, you're never getting the nut low draw to fold to a turn raise in a limit game, especially not in a raised pot. Maybe you can get someone with just A3 to fold, but was that your objective in raising the turn? When the old man calls, I think there's a good chance he has A2. And just because the prop slows down doesn't mean he doesn't have a straight; he could be scared you have the same straight with a flush redraw.

I hear pros and commentators talk about blockers in heads-up situations in big-bet games like NLH or PLO; I think they're much less relevant in multiway limit games. So I don't know what you're hoping to achieve by raising the turn.

On the river you missed your flush and have the second-nut low. The old man could check with A2 because he's worried about getting quartered. The prop could check with the nut straight because he's worried about getting quartered. And either of them could have A3. You should check and hope your low is good for something; I don't think you're ever winning the high.

I think the preflop raise is good, both to deny equity to the blinds and leverage an equity advantage against the limpers. It's a stong hand both ways against the range of a bunch of limpers.

The flop is neither particularly good or bad for us. Checking wouldn't be terrible, but I like the bet for equity denial. If we are lucky, someone in early position will raise and help clear the field. The outcome you got (everyone flat calling) is pretty neutral.

On the turn, the raise seems unnecessary. You have a lot of equity in the pot, but I'm not sure what a raise accomplishes. A better low hand is not going to fold. And the hands that will fold (worse flush draws and low draws), are hands you would like to keep in the pot. Because you have position, you can likely get your value on the river when you hit.

And what are you hoping to accomplish with the river bet? I suppose one good outcome here is possibly getting a HJ to fold a better high if MP calls with a low. But that seems like a thin parlay.

Pre is good
Flop is a check 4 handed. The only draw to the nuts is a 2 for 1/2 the pot. Or runner runner flush, runner runner full house. Blockers aren't nearly as relevant in limit 4 handed.
Turn: Spew
River: Just check. You aren't folding out low straights for one bet. Or another A3. I doubt A4 runs you down on this board.

I don't think we need any turn bluffs that don't have A2 in them TBH. I feel very different about this play if we had AJJ2. And I'd almost rather do this w/ the Ac blocker because we'd like 4 calls behind when we're drawing at a flush and nut low. Not sure, though, since trying to bluff scoops isn't something I do much of in these loose low stakes games.

I was interpreting his turn raise as being for value.

Pretty weird value when our high is certainly no good and the low draw is marginal. Kc and Qc scoop, 2c might scoop or good for 3/4, 8c or 4c might scoop or might cost 1-2 bets losing to a boat. Other low clubs are good for somewhere between half pot to a scoop. Any non-deuce low could cost us a bet on the river but maybe raising the turn allows us to check through with the 2nd nut low (even though he bet it here).

Preflop I don't mind the raise, but definitely checking the flop and just calling the turn - as someone mentioned you're just going to drive out worse club draws which you want in, the only good that can come of it is squeezing out another A3 when no one has A2, or allowing us to check through non-nutted rivers. I guess it depends how often this game is going to showdown but in games I play the answer is like 90% so it's often really that simple to just draw to the nuts and bet accordingly, otherwise keep it cheap.