Okay. I don't see much difference. You can't control someone without using force or its threat anyway. What about my post is wrong? Can we actually discuss this?

What's to discuss?

I claim every group of people want to control people's lives in some way - including libertarians (who I believe are probably the people least likely to want to control other people's lives).

You questioned that claim - and I pointed out that the NAP involves controlling people.

I don't actually care to debate if the NAP is a morally good or bad restriction on people's actions. That's a topic for another thread. I was just pointing out that it's silly to say group X is bad for wanting to control people when that's a true statement for every mainstream (or non-mainstream) group of people.

Edit: The reason I pointed out that you changed "control" to "force" is because I find it silly that some libertarians take every opportunity to replace words with more emotionally charged synonyms because they seem to think it makes some grand point.

Okay, I see what you are saying, and I agree with you.

However, I think in today's society everyone (?) does not want violence or force used against them to force them to do something they do not want to do. Is this not universal? If it is, I don't know if that is control.

krmont - you ignore the whole aspect of individual property rights and how libertarians build their whole control system around that. There are definitely groups of people that don't start from those same premises.

For instance libertarians would say that a person should not be allowed to walk up to their neighbour's apple tree uninvited and take an apple to eat. That's not a universally accepted belief.

I agree that many people think that. Does anyone want violence used against them to make them do something against their will? Let us start there.

really you think ppl would think it was ok to take apples uninvited?

Of course? A majority of people think it not only okay but the moral standard. I am not one of the them, though.

Start what? I don't want to debate if one group's beliefs about what to control are reasonable or not. I just wanted to point out that every group has those beliefs. We've spent too much time on this pretty simple point anyway.

lol.

I want to start a discussion about universal beliefs. Do you think there exists a person who wants to be forced to do something against their will?

This isn't a citation. This is equivalent to someone saying, 'oh, some guy on the radio said it.'

You made the claim, you should be able to steer towards your direct supporting source other than 'my dad says so.' Btw...no one is saying there is no fraud. It's more a matter of significance.

Because if you know some history, you'd know why complete free markets do not lead to utopia. Perpetuating the claim is trying to force people to look beyond that.


b

why should they be forced to help you if you are dying? heck, if the world was perfect they'd be allowed to deny you just because they hate n*****s and f*****s.

I'm a libertarian and I wouldn't say that.

Start a thread?

Now, setting aside the fact that this is a dumb argument on itself, considering you gave no proof that Italy is going bakrupt for the UHC, Italy is going nowhere. It's the 8th economy in the world and has the same public debt to GDP ratio than the US. But again, unless you show proof that Italy goes bankrupt ( at least in your mind ) thanks you UHC, your argument is worthless.

You mean like, oh my god, actual proof? Damn, that's gotta be a first him and leo.

Italy's economy is buoyed by their cash based culture.

Yes, we all dream of the perfect world where ******s and ******s are dying on the sidewalks outside of hospitals. God speed, brother.

I never get sick. Haven't had a cold in 30 years. Why do I need health insurance?

Ok, listing a cite for Medicare fraud would be endless.

Italy just had a large number of its banks downgraded. It is over its head in debt, and it looks like it will need a bailout similar to Greece. It spends way more than it produces.

Both of these things are widespread and rampant in the news. Simple searches will provide 100s of citations. Do people really deny reality? Or do you just not read the news at all?

Clearly you do not. You are probably immortal.

Then pick one.

I think he was being facetious.

And immune to car wrecks. Elijah Price's days are numbered.

you guys keep talking about car wrecks. you know that car insurance covers injuries and med pay for car wrecks right?

Which is only helpful because the big, bad government mandates that folks have car insurance