This point is important on another level as well. I was at the rally yesterday and the speakers were talking about everything from worker’s rights to Israel to shaming people who only show up at protests every few months and go back to their comfortable lives. All valid and all diluting the message and opportunity here.

We have an issue that will either serve as a distraction from real progress or potentially be a catalyst. There is a window of opportunity here that narrows every single time something outrageous occurs. The right is able to be effective in part because they understand that an issue as ****ing stupid as “Lock her up!” is simple enough to be galvanizing and they are relentless with hammering it. We can’t even simplify the message of mothers being locked in cages within hearing of their crying babies into a simple message! Wtf man. There should be no talk about ANYTHING else right now. There should be no efforts into making lynching a federal hate crime, or restaurants, or abolishing ICE, or whose attitude is defeatist. Hammer this shot. Hammer it. Day in and day out. Make it so there is no hiding from it. If you support this administration you support caged babies.

My wife’s parents listen to the equivalent of Fox News for the Vietnamese community and if you think the lies are blatant on Fox...holy ****. They are being told that kids are NOT being locked up at all! They are being told that Trump is trying to help the Vietnamese American protester who got beaten and locked up even though it is 4 Democrats who are pushing for the administration to act and they won’t!

We are too fractured. We can learn from their tactics and apply the good parts—the simplicity, the repeating, the relentless message without the lies and deceit and still live with ourselves. We have the truth on our side but there is no time for ****ing nuance anymore, or else we can discuss our internal hypocrisy in the ****ing cells when they round up the liberals.

but many people already knew and hated Hillary - but people don't hate ICE

People hate family separation policies. So Dems just have to tie that to ICE and this is a winning policy! Thanks for the strategy advice, this is gonna be great.

A couple more from Phoenix. News reports say 800 people, I say at least double that.





I agree that "Abolish ICE" is potentially risky. Samantha Bee had a great segment about this more than a month ago (even before family separation outrage ramped up). It was persuasive but nuanced. If you don't understand that ICE and Border Patrol are two different things, "Abolish ICE" sounds insane and just leaves you open to being dismissed and ridiculed as advocating "open borders".

You support locking children in cages with nothing but concrete and foil blankets because their parents are looking for something your family was given at some point. You are so greedy that you jealously guard what you are scared of losing from people who would work jobs in chicken processing plants while you get robbed blind by the obscenely wealthy because you dream to join them one day. Your understanding of what it means to be human is defective. You are the villain.

People don't like ICE. It is not popular.

The speakers at the rally I was at talked about a lot of stuff, but almost all of the 70000 people who were there, were there because of the children. There are a handful of people who are in Occupy ICE and such who are there every day now. As far as getting 70000 people there every day - I don't know. I don't know. I should probably start going once a week or something, but there's nothing to say other than I'm not willing to put it ahead of doing the work I need to pay bills and such or even just relaxing - my job at my age sometimes kinda requires some recovery.

I actually am going somewhere near downtown today and maybe I'll stop by Occupy ICE and hang out there for a bit and maybe get some coffee or whatever for some people there.

Sure but absolutely every Democrat, and I mean every Democrat, is now accused of being for open borders regardless of their actual policy.

In any case there was a tweet yesterday that was basically pinning Democrats down about abolishing ICE is fine, but that everyone implicitly knew that Cruz and Republicans weren't serious when they proposed to end IRS so they didn't bother to ask them anything related to it because they knew it wasn't a literal policy prescription shows how lopsided our debate is.

When I'm looking for really insightful opinion, I often find myself wondering, "what does businessdude think?"

Yes. It is lopsided. Let’s accept that ****ing reality at this point and adjust instead of lamenting the fairness of it. They have the benefit of shamelessness and ruthlessness in tactic and a focus that is literally a mental defect. For **** sake, they are controlled by OLD ass men who have accumulated more wealth than can ever be spent by generations yet they are voracious in gobbling up more! They have the advantage of insatiable drive for power and greed that can’t be duplicated by normal people.

They can lie. They can cheat, steal, manipulate, harm, and point the finger back. They have those among their supporters who are easy to fool and weaponize. That’s the way it is stacked. We have the majority that in some sense wants what it good and fair and right, but also are not looking for conflict until their fight or flight gets triggered.

So what are we going to do man? Let’s put Kelly Ann back on the tv so she can spout her obvious lies and we can all titter about it for the literal thousandth time? Wait for some hero that is interesting enough for the entertainment news media to put on against a ****ing train wreck that always delivers daily.

It’s not fair. Not at all. What are we going to do? Ignore the firehose! Ignore their blatant hypocrisy. It’s time to be honest with what our side has to do to compete. It’s more than be better people than them, we have to fight better, more effectively. Simplify. Make it easy for the non-confrontational to get involved. Make it easy for them to understand and simply support it. The entirety of what is at stake is too big to swallow for even the people here who are able to grasp a lot of it, but we need to be able to act.

This is not who we are. That is a simple message that can be applied to every ****ing atrocity being dumped into our vision day after day. This is not who we are. We don’t lock up kids. We don’t seat crying children in cages with no toys or books or help—worse than most covicted muderers ffs!! We don’t do this. This is not who we are.

If that doesn’t work man, we can expect the literal worst to come next. I’m not talking about just repealing roe v Wade, or the next democrat president having a tough time with the conservative scotus.

40% of the country's reaction to the holocaust: It didn't happen or if it did the Jews should have stayed in Israel.

Make them say it. And honestly “this is not who we are” is a lie and a trope and ignores history. I. Do. Not. Care. Right. Now. When they can claim the Bible tells them that Mary should have Jesus torn from her arms had she asked for shelter at our border rather than Bethlahem, we can use people’s american exceptionalism indoctrination for good right now. .

I mean, it may be popular with you.

America is, let's be honest, not only terrible now but has basically been terrible forever. We stopped the Nazis, kind of, but Russia did far more, does that mean we should pretend their country isn't horrible?

Chris Hayes makes a great point: we've never been close to being what we claim to be or aspire to be.

https://twitter.com/DannyMcGlashing/...61030297669632

This is always a huge problem on the left. I remember when I went to the Iraq War protest here in Adelaide in 2003, some chick got up on stage at the rally point and started ranting about, like, unionism and the plight of the proletariat or something. I was like Jesus ****ing Christ can we stay on message here?

Then if you're in SEA or POR the anarchists show up and break the Apple store windows

I did go to Occupy ICE in LA today. Nothing interesting to report. There were about 20 tents and about 10 people around, out of the tents anyway. There was going to be a teach-in later, but I didn't stay for it. They had a pretty decent stash of supplies.

https://www.rawstory.com/2018/06/ice...ke-us-anymore/

Nah, the windows were probably broken due to a spec of dust being in them.

Hey MSM, instead of endless handwringing about civility and economic anxiety, maybe point out stuff like this more often?



I guess "hey things are getting a little better all the time and more or less under control" isn't a sexy message that sells copy from either side.

You don't know what right wingers mean by border control. That number isn't zero, so there is no control. Also, there are still asylum seekers and legal immigrants, so it's not under control.

https://twitter.com/nytimes/status/1013520154871951360