Unwilling to Work - Politics and Economics

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Unwilling to Work

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02-13-2019 , 01:34 AM

Mason Malmuth

Former Top Dog

Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 13,014

Hi Everyone:

The way I understand things is that in the New Green Deal AOC has proposed to give those people who are unwilling to work money. Of course, everyone says this is crazy and there is much objection to this idea.

However, years ago Milton Friedman proposed a negative income tax which would do exactly this for those who are unwilling to work:

Best wishes,
Mason

02-13-2019 , 01:36 AM

ScreaminAsian

For President

Join Date: Oct 2008 Posts: 33,333

the way i understand it, this suggestion was not included in the green new deal proposal.

Ocasio-Cortez Team Flubs a Green New Deal Summary, and Republicans Pounce

Days after introducing her Green New Deal — a plan to combat climate change that has won the endorsement of several Democratic presidential candidates — Representative Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez found the proposal enmeshed in confusion when her staff published a summary that included provisions not endorsed by the candidates.

Over the weekend her staff backed away from the document, saying it was incomplete and had been published by accident, after Republicans pounced on the plan, citing a blog post of frequently asked questions. That post included language that called for economic security “for all who are unable or unwilling to work.”

“An early draft of a FAQ that was clearly unfinished and that doesn’t represent the GND resolution got published to the website by mistake,” Saikat Chakrabarti, Ms. Ocasio-Cortez’s chief of staff, wrote on Twitter, referring to the plan by its acronym.

02-13-2019 , 01:42 AM

ScreaminAsian

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Join Date: Oct 2008 Posts: 33,333

and i don't think it's so crazy. a society needs artists and art doesn't pay, especially not at the start. so why limit artists to only people who have rich dads? it would be great to have more art in the world. definitely better for society than some full-time golfer part-time ceo getting his second ferrari.

02-13-2019 , 01:43 AM

Melkerson

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Mason Malmuth

Hi Everyone:

The way I understand things is that in the New Green Deal AOC has proposed to give those people who are unwilling to work money.

Mason,

Your understanding is wrong.

That is not part of the Green New Deal.

There was an early draft of a FAQ that had those three words in it. That was uploaded to her website erroneously and has since been taken down. And that was never in the text of the proposal at any time.

Hope that clears things up for you.

Of course, the topic itself is fine and has been discussed here before. If I may suggest, I think it would behoove you edit the OP, so that the misunderstanding you mention is omitted. It's factually incorrect and will just distract from the substance of the discussion.

02-13-2019 , 01:52 AM

gregorio

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That's not from the GND but a leaked draft that does not reflect the actual resolution, Right-wing sources have been circulating it, often in bad faith, to try to stir up their base.

02-13-2019 , 01:52 AM

Mason Malmuth

Former Top Dog

Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 13,014

Quote:

Originally Posted by Melkerson

It doesn't matter if it's part or not part of the New Green Deal. The point is this is something that has been talked about a lot and most everyone says it's a crazy idea. But if you watch the video, you'll see someone, who many of us on the conservative side consider to have been very knowledgeable, who is saying that those who are unwilling to work should get money.

Best wishes,
Mason

02-13-2019 , 01:56 AM

Melkerson

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Mason Malmuth

If it doesn't matter whether it's actually in there or not, then why leave it in the OP. It's factually inaccurate, and as you said, it doesn't actually matter as far as the topic of discussion is concerned.

02-13-2019 , 01:59 AM

Slighted

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This is as “it’s a trap!!” Moment as I’ve ever seen one.

02-13-2019 , 02:01 AM

e1cnr

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Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 2,008

even though current draft does not have those words, page 12 line 14 has wording that could be interpreted as very similar.

https://apps.npr.org/documents/docum...New-Deal-FINAL

02-13-2019 , 02:01 AM

#10

chymechowder

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Quote:

Originally Posted by gregorio

That's not from the GND but a leaked draft that does not reflect the actual resolution, Right-wing sources have been circulating it, often in bad faith, to try to stir up their base.

who leaked it? AOC published it to her website. and sent it to NPR.

02-13-2019 , 02:12 AM

#11

Melkerson

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Quote:

Originally Posted by e1cnr

even though current draft does not have those words, page 12 line 14 has wording that could be interpreted as very similar.

https://apps.npr.org/documents/docum...New-Deal-FINAL

You mean the "guaranteeing a job" part? And how is that similar exactly? If someone is unwilling to work, that part doesn't help them one bit.

02-13-2019 , 02:13 AM

#12

ScreaminAsian

For President

Join Date: Oct 2008 Posts: 33,333

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mason Malmuth

i think the negative income tax idea is a great idea with a noble goal of eliminating poverty. giving poor people money is a fantastic idea and it should be a winning idea politically but unfortunately dems are too scared to include it in their new deal proposal which was purely for show anyway, they knew it would never pass the senate even with the "unwilling to work" part removed.

unfortunately the overton window has moved so far right that modern democrats want to signal to america that they overwhelmingly reject milton friedman's best economic advice as "too socialist"

02-13-2019 , 02:16 AM

#13

Mason Malmuth

Former Top Dog

Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 13,014

Quote:

Originally Posted by Slighted

This is as “it’s a trap!!” Moment as I’ve ever seen one.

It's no trap. But I am asking a question. Should we give money to those who are unwilling to work? A negative income tax would do exactly that. Don't you think you should watch the video?

Mason

02-13-2019 , 02:19 AM

#14

Melkerson

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Mason Malmuth

It's no trap. But I am asking a question. Should we give money to those who are unwilling to work? A negative income tax would do exactly that. Don't you think you should watch the video?

Mason

As I stated earlier, this topic has already been discussed here before, and many have likely already seen the video.

Also to be clear, you agree that your misunderstanding about the GND is both factually incorrect and doesn't matter to the discussion, but you think it's important to keep it in the OP anyway. Do I have that right?

02-13-2019 , 02:25 AM

#15

aoFrantic

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Every other poster is made to do basic due dilligence before starting a thread. That is so we know they are not a troll and the discussion is in good faith.

Better luck next time Mason!

Ps. Mind telling us where you read this falsehood? That would be appreciated!

02-13-2019 , 02:26 AM

#16

gregorio

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In theory a negative income tax is a great idea just like a UBI, but in practice they are both usually proposed as a cost-saving alternative to existing social services, and would leave poor people and people who can't work due to a a disability worse off as they'd lose a bunch of other benefits that were available as part of their welfare, disability or other income support program.

02-13-2019 , 02:30 AM

#17

ScreaminAsian

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Join Date: Oct 2008 Posts: 33,333

so agree to the negative income tax, then say "yeah yeah we'll cut those other entitlements later" and just never cut them

king dealmaker

02-13-2019 , 02:34 AM

#18

Mason Malmuth

Former Top Dog

Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 13,014

Quote:

Originally Posted by Melkerson

I don't care what the GND may or may not say. However, the idea that money should be given to people unwilling to work is now being addressed because of the discussion of the GND (whether that idea being part of the GND is accurate or not). So I'm asking the question, does the above video, which does advocate giving money to people unwilling to work, make sense?

Best wishes,
Mason

02-13-2019 , 02:36 AM

#19

Mason Malmuth

Former Top Dog

Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 13,014

Quote:

Originally Posted by aoFrantic

And what falsehood are you referring to? If it's the idea that if you're not willing to work you shouldn't receive any money, then I suggest you watch the video.

Mason

02-13-2019 , 02:37 AM

#20

Mason Malmuth

Former Top Dog

Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 13,014

Quote:

Originally Posted by gregorio

Why? If someone has a certain disability, can't the negative income tax be structured so that this person receives more money.

Best wishes,
mason

02-13-2019 , 02:39 AM

#21

Mason Malmuth

Former Top Dog

Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 13,014

Quote:

Originally Posted by ScreaminAsian

so agree to the negative income tax, then say "yeah yeah we'll cut those other entitlements later" and just never cut them

Hi Asian:

You may be exactly right. But that still doesn't address the question as to whether we should give money to those who are unwilling to work.

Best wishes,
mason

02-13-2019 , 02:42 AM

#22

Melkerson

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Mason Malmuth

I don't care what the GND may or may not say. However, the idea that money should be given to people unwilling to work is now being addressed because of the discussion of the GND (whether that idea being part of the GND is accurate or not). So I'm asking the question, does the above video, which does advocate giving money to people unwilling to work, make sense?

Best wishes,
Mason

Why don't you care what the truth actually is? I can understand caring little, but not at all? I think the overall level of discussion, which I know you're committed to improving, is always better when factual inaccuracies are kept to a minimum. Perhaps something to consider.

Anyway, for the answer you seek, this thread may be of interest:
https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/4...ncome-1716109/

02-13-2019 , 02:46 AM

#23

David Sklansky

Administrator

Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 17,073

Any money the government has to improve the lives of a few million non disabled poor Americans who are unwilling to work should instead go to SAVE the lives of TENS of millions Africans who ARE willing to work.

02-13-2019 , 02:49 AM

#24

Mason Malmuth

Former Top Dog

Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 13,014

Quote:

Originally Posted by Melkerson

To answer your question knowing what the exact truth is here would be self-weighting -- you'll need to read my Gambling Theory book, and things that are self-weighting are unimportant. I hope that helps.

Also, and I'm going by memory. But I do believe there was a presidential candidate who proposed a negative income tax, and he lost badly.

Mason

02-13-2019 , 02:59 AM

#25

Melkerson

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Mason Malmuth

I think you're missing my point entirely.

Why wouldn't this: "It is my understanding that many people wrongly think AOC's Green New Deal has proposed to give those people who are unwilling to work money."

be a better opening to your OP than what you wrote, which was as follows

Quote:

The way I understand things is that in the New Green Deal AOC has proposed to give those people who are unwilling to work money.

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