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Old 07-04-2018, 05:15 PM   #76
chezlaw
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Re: Universal Basic Income

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Originally Posted by Bladesman87 View Post
Part of the problem is solved by people having some form of income that can afford basic housing prior to them becoming homeless. Other parts of the problem are solved by underpinning this with better public services like universal healthcare and such.

And then when you approach a homeless person who for some reason has slipped through the cracks, there is this ready built system of support for their health and basic living such that all we need to do is get them access. That's really a tiny problem relative to now, where the issue is that the safety nets don't exist or are insufficient.
This has to be the right approach. It can't just be UBI. Health care, quality social housing etc are still needed.

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Originally Posted by Slighted View Post
A judge I practiced in front of always said you calculate how much it costs to house someone in prison in your area and then you give that amount to everyone as a UBI.
How about it being just enough to make minimum wage laws irrelevant? i.e. an amount that means people can chose not to work rather than be exploited.
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Old 07-11-2018, 09:56 AM   #77
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Re: Universal Basic Income

A recent New Yorker article about UBI: https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2...l-basic-income
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Old 07-19-2018, 06:56 PM   #78
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Re: Universal Basic Income

Not entirely sure how it could work in the long run but where do I apply to get in on one of the pilot programs?
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Old 08-23-2018, 10:42 AM   #79
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Re: Universal Basic Income

Ezra Klein podcast with Andrew Yang did a pretty deep dive into UBI. He is running for President in 2020 as a Democrat. Was a pretty good listen, I thought Ezra clearly knew more about the pros and cons of the subject since his wife wrote a book on the subject. Did a very good job of steelmanning Yang's arguments.

I have some issues with UBI and I don't think it is a very good idea but good listen nonetheless.


I think if we're really in a situation where AI/automation is going to crush jobs then it is likely going to be gradual and we should just gradually move the retirement age up. And possibly limit legal immigration.

I just think the UBIers way underestimate the cultural effect of giving a 22 year old 1k in 2018. Let those that have worked just work less longer if you believe the number of jobs is becoming more scarce/finite.
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Old 08-23-2018, 10:56 AM   #80
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Re: Universal Basic Income

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Originally Posted by Howard Beale View Post
I've been trying to think of how to get a basic income into the hands of the street people and can't come up w/ anything that works. Can't just hand them $1K on the first every month, they'd either spend it all quickly or get robbed. Give them a debit card? Someone will come along and rob them of that too or buy it off of them w/ the password for a few dollars. Then there's the problem of them trying to double-dip which I suppose could be prevented if they all had to give fingerprints and wait for processing. Anyone have any ideas?
Start with a trivial sum that could work currently. $200 for passing GO, given out on July 4th to everyone below poverty starting from the bottom.

The amount given is tied to factors of public good. If crime dips in a given year, then the payment goes up. This is just a simple example, but there are ways to tie it together so that every citizen has influence.

Last edited by Tuma; 08-23-2018 at 11:01 AM.
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Old 08-23-2018, 01:18 PM   #81
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Re: Universal Basic Income

idk if the poor need even more disincentive to call the police when there's a problem they can't handle
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Old 09-19-2018, 02:14 PM   #82
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Re: Universal Basic Income

First, apologies for resurrecting an old thread.

What I don't understand is why governments are doing these small scale universal basic income experiments when the scalability of such a system is fully questionable. UBI working or not working in a 1000 individual experiment is completely meaningless in assessing whether UBI would work in a 10 million+ population. Especially considering that the 1000 subjects of the experiment are interacting economically with the greater non-UBI population, there just seems no value in these experiments.

I have no opinion on the feasibility of UBI but I do have a big problem with the way its feasibility is studied.

A much better way would be to take something of a similar scale and function and see if that can be improved upon. Say Social Security, which is the closest thing we have to UBI. Universal benefits that are largely the same across the board with semi progressive taxation to pay for it. Think of it as delayed UBI.

You can learn a lot more about the feasibility of UBI by looking at what it takes to keep SS solvent than some small UBI community experiment.

Last edited by amoeba; 09-19-2018 at 02:22 PM.
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Old 09-19-2018, 02:19 PM   #83
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Re: Universal Basic Income

Don't apologize, it's an interesting discussion if you weed out the nonsense posts.
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Old 09-19-2018, 06:49 PM   #84
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Re: Universal Basic Income

Meh, one of the more advanced countries in Europe will figure it out and we'll never ever get it here because of our hatred of the poors and love of our bootstraps.
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Old 09-19-2018, 07:10 PM   #85
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Re: Universal Basic Income

Quote:
Originally Posted by amoeba View Post
First, apologies for resurrecting an old thread.

What I don't understand is why governments are doing these small scale universal basic income experiments when the scalability of such a system is fully questionable. UBI working or not working in a 1000 individual experiment is completely meaningless in assessing whether UBI would work in a 10 million+ population. Especially considering that the 1000 subjects of the experiment are interacting economically with the greater non-UBI population, there just seems no value in these experiments.

I have no opinion on the feasibility of UBI but I do have a big problem with the way its feasibility is studied.

A much better way would be to take something of a similar scale and function and see if that can be improved upon. Say Social Security, which is the closest thing we have to UBI. Universal benefits that are largely the same across the board with semi progressive taxation to pay for it. Think of it as delayed UBI.

You can learn a lot more about the feasibility of UBI by looking at what it takes to keep SS solvent than some small UBI community experiment.
They're value can be like putting a toe in the water. If it doesn't get too much heat then you can gradually submerge the whole body.

You have to already believe that you want to get in.
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Old 09-19-2018, 09:37 PM   #86
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Re: Universal Basic Income

Ontario's UBI pilot project just got axed before it could be completed by our new premier because of his hatred of the poors and love of bootstraps.
Quote:
The premature end of Ontario’s basic income pilot project is a serious breach of Canadian and international research ethics that harms Canada’s reputation on the world stage, say academics and activists from across the globe.

“Not only is the cancellation inconsistent with international best practices, but it violates your own Canadian policy for the ethical conduct of experiments involving humans,” warns University of Manitoba health economist Evelyn Forget in the letter signed by more than 20 researchers and stakeholders participating in basic income initiatives around the world.

Forget, one of 40 academics and researchers hired by the previous government to evaluate Ontario’s experiment, is still shocked it has been cancelled. So are those working on basic income projects in Finland, the Netherlands, Scotland, India, Spain, Kenya and the United States, who signed Forget’s open letter.
https://www.thestar.com/news/queensp...l-outrage.html
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Old 09-19-2018, 09:51 PM   #87
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Re: Universal Basic Income

****ing Canadians
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Old 09-20-2018, 12:13 AM   #88
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Re: Universal Basic Income

Quote:
Originally Posted by amoeba View Post
First, apologies for resurrecting an old thread.

What I don't understand is why governments are doing these small scale universal basic income experiments when the scalability of such a system is fully questionable. UBI working or not working in a 1000 individual experiment is completely meaningless in assessing whether UBI would work in a 10 million+ population. Especially considering that the 1000 subjects of the experiment are interacting economically with the greater non-UBI population, there just seems no value in these experiments.

I have no opinion on the feasibility of UBI but I do have a big problem with the way its feasibility is studied.

A much better way would be to take something of a similar scale and function and see if that can be improved upon. Say Social Security, which is the closest thing we have to UBI. Universal benefits that are largely the same across the board with semi progressive taxation to pay for it. Think of it as delayed UBI.

You can learn a lot more about the feasibility of UBI by looking at what it takes to keep SS solvent than some small UBI community experiment.

The most obvious critique of these case studies is that a large component of why you'd expect it to impact peoples choices is the confidence that it'll be around indefinitely. If you think it'll only last a couple of years it doesn't really have a material impact on your choices.

It's also not nearly as significant of a factor for people who're already invested in a career and/or in a routine that they're comfortable with. To someone whose 40 and spent the last 10 years working towards the job they're in it's not as if they'll just throw in the towel. To someone contemplating an entry level job it's a much bigger factor.

But as usual people will see whatever they want to see.
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Old 09-20-2018, 09:24 AM   #89
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Re: Universal Basic Income

How does someone live in a major metropolitan area on UBI alone? The lack of affordable housing isn't solved by UBI.
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Old 09-20-2018, 10:08 AM   #90
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Re: Universal Basic Income

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Originally Posted by Abbaddabba View Post
The most obvious critique of these case studies is that a large component of why you'd expect it to impact peoples choices is the confidence that it'll be around indefinitely. If you think it'll only last a couple of years it doesn't really have a material impact on your choices.
It's an extreme example of the data fallacy. We will only know how UBI works out if we commit to it for a very long time. It will cause society to restructure significantly over generations and although we might well think that will be a good thing, there's simply no way data can tell us anything much until afterwards (even then it will be pretty weak)
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Old 09-20-2018, 12:04 PM   #91
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Re: Universal Basic Income

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Originally Posted by kerowo View Post
How does someone live in a major metropolitan area on UBI alone? The lack of affordable housing isn't solved by UBI.
that housing in the most expensive pockets of the country isnt affordable to everyone doesn’t seem like a crisis.
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Old 09-20-2018, 12:30 PM   #92
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Re: Universal Basic Income

How far do you expect your barista, waiter, uber driver, or sales clerk to commute into the city to provide for the richy-rich people who can afford 2k+ a month on housing expenses?
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Old 09-20-2018, 12:50 PM   #93
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Re: Universal Basic Income

Downtown Toronto becoming like ‘Downton Abbey’ as service workers get pushed farther from the core
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This dynamic of lower-paid suburban workers servicing downtown’s bankers, lawyers and “creative class Sunshine List professionals” is turning the city into a kind of “Downton Abbey,” according to one researcher who’s studied the phenomenon. It’s a divide that could lead to labour shortages in the core — as service workers forced to commute farther and farther lose the incentive to take those positions.

“The comparison to Downton Abbey is that you have the lords and ladies living upstairs and then you have this cadre of people who support them,” said John Stapleton, innovation fellow at the non-profit Metcalf Foundation, of the PBS period drama about an upper-crust Edwardian family with a houseful of servants.

Deena Ladd, with the Toronto-based Workers’ Action Centre, believes it’s critical to have “minimum standards” like the planned minimum wage hike and other protections around precarious work introduced in fall 2017, to make sure workers across sectors can live in the city.

“Otherwise what we’re doing is we’re basically saying to them, you’re good enough to work, but you’re not good enough to live in the city that you work in, and that’s ridiculous,” she said.
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Old 09-20-2018, 01:42 PM   #94
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Re: Universal Basic Income

A few years ago I listened to a talk from a city manager in Aspen and he mentioned this problem. He said the place is so expensive they have doctors living in subsidized housing.
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Old 09-20-2018, 02:43 PM   #95
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Re: Universal Basic Income

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Originally Posted by kerowo View Post
How far do you expect your barista, waiter, uber driver, or sales clerk to commute into the city to provide for the richy-rich people who can afford 2k+ a month on housing expenses?
I might be missing some of the nuance here, but it sounds like those people won't be "living on UBI alone"
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Old 09-20-2018, 02:49 PM   #96
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Re: Universal Basic Income

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Originally Posted by kerowo View Post
How far do you expect your barista, waiter, uber driver, or sales clerk to commute into the city to provide for the richy-rich people who can afford 2k+ a month on housing expenses?
Ask the (invisible) hand.
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Old 09-20-2018, 04:24 PM   #97
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Re: Universal Basic Income

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I might be missing some of the nuance here, but it sounds like those people won't be "living on UBI alone"
Could be, what is the point of the UBI? If it's supposed to be a safety next shouldn't it provide a living wage? If not how is it not using tax money to let Walmart et al pay their employees ****?
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Old 09-20-2018, 04:47 PM   #98
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Re: Universal Basic Income

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Originally Posted by kerowo View Post
How far do you expect your barista, waiter, uber driver, or sales clerk to commute into the city to provide for the richy-rich people who can afford 2k+ a month on housing expenses?
The major advent of self driving cars would help this considerably.


Also, more professional jobs increasing remote capabilities would allow less crowding in cities and a more spread out populace, which should lead to lower housing costs.
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Old 09-20-2018, 05:24 PM   #99
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Re: Universal Basic Income

UBI is not a replacement for planning and social housing.
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Old 09-21-2018, 09:43 AM   #100
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Re: Universal Basic Income

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Originally Posted by kerowo View Post
How far do you expect your barista, waiter, uber driver, or sales clerk to commute into the city to provide for the richy-rich people who can afford 2k+ a month on housing expenses?
They could live in 60 square meters flat in huge condos like they do in the rest of the world, or do you think having a big house is a basic human right that the state has to provide at any cost, and close to the best services the whole country has to offer?
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