This has to be the right approach. It can't just be UBI. Health care, quality social housing etc are still needed.

How about it being just enough to make minimum wage laws irrelevant? i.e. an amount that means people can chose not to work rather than be exploited.

A recent New Yorker article about UBI: https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2...l-basic-income

Not entirely sure how it could work in the long run but where do I apply to get in on one of the pilot programs?

Ezra Klein podcast with Andrew Yang did a pretty deep dive into UBI. He is running for President in 2020 as a Democrat. Was a pretty good listen, I thought Ezra clearly knew more about the pros and cons of the subject since his wife wrote a book on the subject. Did a very good job of steelmanning Yang's arguments.

I have some issues with UBI and I don't think it is a very good idea but good listen nonetheless.


I think if we're really in a situation where AI/automation is going to crush jobs then it is likely going to be gradual and we should just gradually move the retirement age up. And possibly limit legal immigration.

I just think the UBIers way underestimate the cultural effect of giving a 22 year old 1k in 2018. Let those that have worked just work less longer if you believe the number of jobs is becoming more scarce/finite.

Start with a trivial sum that could work currently. $200 for passing GO, given out on July 4th to everyone below poverty starting from the bottom.

The amount given is tied to factors of public good. If crime dips in a given year, then the payment goes up. This is just a simple example, but there are ways to tie it together so that every citizen has influence.

idk if the poor need even more disincentive to call the police when there's a problem they can't handle

First, apologies for resurrecting an old thread.

What I don't understand is why governments are doing these small scale universal basic income experiments when the scalability of such a system is fully questionable. UBI working or not working in a 1000 individual experiment is completely meaningless in assessing whether UBI would work in a 10 million+ population. Especially considering that the 1000 subjects of the experiment are interacting economically with the greater non-UBI population, there just seems no value in these experiments.

I have no opinion on the feasibility of UBI but I do have a big problem with the way its feasibility is studied.

A much better way would be to take something of a similar scale and function and see if that can be improved upon. Say Social Security, which is the closest thing we have to UBI. Universal benefits that are largely the same across the board with semi progressive taxation to pay for it. Think of it as delayed UBI.

You can learn a lot more about the feasibility of UBI by looking at what it takes to keep SS solvent than some small UBI community experiment.

Don't apologize, it's an interesting discussion if you weed out the nonsense posts.

Meh, one of the more advanced countries in Europe will figure it out and we'll never ever get it here because of our hatred of the poors and love of our bootstraps.

They're value can be like putting a toe in the water. If it doesn't get too much heat then you can gradually submerge the whole body.

You have to already believe that you want to get in.

Ontario's UBI pilot project just got axed before it could be completed by our new premier because of his hatred of the poors and love of bootstraps. https://www.thestar.com/news/queensp...l-outrage.html

****ing Canadians

The most obvious critique of these case studies is that a large component of why you'd expect it to impact peoples choices is the confidence that it'll be around indefinitely. If you think it'll only last a couple of years it doesn't really have a material impact on your choices.

It's also not nearly as significant of a factor for people who're already invested in a career and/or in a routine that they're comfortable with. To someone whose 40 and spent the last 10 years working towards the job they're in it's not as if they'll just throw in the towel. To someone contemplating an entry level job it's a much bigger factor.

But as usual people will see whatever they want to see.

How does someone live in a major metropolitan area on UBI alone? The lack of affordable housing isn't solved by UBI.

It's an extreme example of the data fallacy. We will only know how UBI works out if we commit to it for a very long time. It will cause society to restructure significantly over generations and although we might well think that will be a good thing, there's simply no way data can tell us anything much until afterwards (even then it will be pretty weak)

that housing in the most expensive pockets of the country isnt affordable to everyone doesn’t seem like a crisis.

How far do you expect your barista, waiter, uber driver, or sales clerk to commute into the city to provide for the richy-rich people who can afford 2k+ a month on housing expenses?

Downtown Toronto becoming like ‘Downton Abbey’ as service workers get pushed farther from the core

A few years ago I listened to a talk from a city manager in Aspen and he mentioned this problem. He said the place is so expensive they have doctors living in subsidized housing.

I might be missing some of the nuance here, but it sounds like those people won't be "living on UBI alone"

Ask the (invisible) hand.

Could be, what is the point of the UBI? If it's supposed to be a safety next shouldn't it provide a living wage? If not how is it not using tax money to let Walmart et al pay their employees ****?

The major advent of self driving cars would help this considerably.


Also, more professional jobs increasing remote capabilities would allow less crowding in cities and a more spread out populace, which should lead to lower housing costs.

UBI is not a replacement for planning and social housing.

They could live in 60 square meters flat in huge condos like they do in the rest of the world, or do you think having a big house is a basic human right that the state has to provide at any cost, and close to the best services the whole country has to offer?