If Nuttall can't win Stoke, I think many of these feared will be allayed. If he does, then what I'm saying will be borne out.

Feb 23rd. Let's just see. The outcome will settle this debate.

Bad logic.

If the Labour Party's reduced to a minority party it will largely be the fault of Corbyn, and when he's replaced by a more moderate leader normal service will be restored.

Silly sausage.

Hopefully.

Labour need to own the issue on immigration by conceding to public sentiment that it takes jobs away from the working man and works to push wages down.

They need to come out 100% on the side of the old British worker. No other position will do.

The problem for you is that 99% of evidence supports my arguments. My arguments are all made from a position of strong empirical support, I dont make arguments I cant support on that basis.

You on the other hand have no such standards, you are anti intellectual, anti expert and post factual and tub thump about it.

The situation isn't anywhere near as simple as your 'more people = more unemployment' level one analysis assumes.

Think about how the UK will struggle to meet its pension liabilities when all the baby boomers have retired, because of a low birth rate.

Then think about the costs of educating a native Brit (high) vs a skilled immigrant (zero), and the extra revenue gained from taxes paid by immigrants.

The reason wages are low isnt because of immigration (though the UKIP racists want you to believe this); it's because of the de-unionisation of the workforce and the desire of senior managers to pay each other ever increasing salaries.

A very high volume, say around 90% of your posts are hand wavy non answers like the above, you dont really understand being discursive.

If Nuttall wins then Corbyn will probably go and the opposition will be more effective.
We'll also get to see Nuttall's true colours.
He's a deeply dishonest man.

Its an absolutely factual reality that the economy of the UK would be totally ****ed with zero immigration.

Nuttall wants to privatise the NHS, lets see how well that plays with the voters.

No one cares because they think it's the immigrants and they'll vote for the person who says that.

That's reality. It's also politics.

Time the left started to actually play it.

Also cant be assed to quote for the millionth time the empirical evidence about how much EU immigrants contribute to the tax system.

No one cares OAFK. This argument was lost last June. Now get with the programme.

You mean play to a campaign of deliberate lies about immigrants?

Are you really so stupid you can't see where this may lead, or so deplorable you don't care?

Do what it takes or face Tory rule literally forever

lol 'forever'.

You're too young to know this has all been said before. Go and read about politics in the 80's then again after '97 and come back and tell us about 'forever'.

Oh, and stop keeping your ale in the fridge ffs boy.

No because you are miles off.

Firstly:

It should be said that such arguments are never lost, they have been going on for hundreds of years and the pendulum swings one way to the other, over most of that time it has swung in the general direction that I am arguing from.


Secondly:

Its the absolute prerogative of intellectuals and anyone who is interested in enlightened discourse and ultimately enlightened political outcomes, to try and elucidate certain truths.

Immigration may negatively impact certain specific cohorts of the UK population, but there are cohorts in areas where their is basically zero immigration who are forgoing other considerations and making political choices based on immigration centric narratives. Its pure false consciousness.

Owen Jones is not running for parliament, he is a public intellectual.

A paid writer of political discourse. Given the sheer preponderance of weight of opinion forming machinery focused on pushing the immigration agenda, its the duty of those wanting public discourse to be as enlightened,transparent and progressive as possible to make alternative arguments.

This is a different issue to whatever public policy Labour takes on immigration.

Played right into my hands making this point.

Thatcher wrecked Labour again and again and again until the left were crushed and we got Blair, a free marketeer at the other end.

Learn the lessons properly.

you never fail to denigrate your opponents with ad hominem attacks. Never. It's like you have troll tourettes - I sincerely hope for your sake it's just your internet personality and not your real one.

With Brexit, there will probably be some fall in immigration.

When it has almost zero material noticeable positive effect on the quality of life of most blue collar workers, and that the business cycle is due to turn up a recession any day now, and austerity gonna austerity, what will blue collar workers blame their woes on then?

And your last couple of posts have been full of counter point and discourse.

Oh wait.

Pot meet the blackest kettle.

^ point made, old chap.

God these posts are so boring. This is supposed to be a forum of intelligent advantage players.

For the benefit of the statistically ignorant, this is how by-elections affect future general elections. They don't. Ever. Zip. Nada. Nothing doing. Not. No.

You have to be really, really f***ing stupid to believe otherwise. You have to be:

a) Too lacking in curiousity to spend five minutes googling where a number of studies refute this fallacy.

b) Have some kind of weird amnesia which enables you to forget about what happens in by-elections and what happens in the subsequent general election, both very high-profile media events it is difficult to avoid even if you want to.

I'm really amazed people who believe this stuff can turn on a computer without electrocuting themselves.

Inevitably there are wild and unrepresentative swings in by-elections which are always reversed at the next general election. Which actually matters. This doesn't. Whatever the result it does not vindicate your or any one else's bull**** hypothesis about where British politics is going.

Insult someone, then accuse them of making insults, when they point out your epic hypocrisy claim victory.

Diebitters level of discursive honesty.