It used to do awesome things like introducing the NHS.

Ok that's been a while but Wilson was radically far to the left of Blair who could easily have been a tory - no-one would have thought it odd if he had been.

Compromise is good. Capitulation is bad.

I dont know where all the defeatism has come from. Alex Salmond was on question time - if had listened to you lot there would be no SMP having all but a few seats in Scotland. Farage wouldn't get to be saying 'well you're not laughing now' (that would be a clearly good thing but the point remains).

When did everybody give up?

Wilson was just holding the bag till the next Tory government came along

The SNP are far to the right of Labour and are pretty centrist. Maybe even centre-right (when you ignore all their rhetoric and look at their actions). Apparently the word from their conference is that their budget will only be 'marginally' different from teh Tories.

He was participating in the game. Both sides get a turn.

The point was that it's totally false to argue from the current polls and recent events to what is politically possible.

Successful political movements change the world. If people with good values dont do it then it will be the farages and trumps of this world who do because they're the only ones trying.

This is something that I spend too much time thinking about.

Why, when I'm working for a quasi government organisation where everyone is paid far less than the market value of their skills, do most of my colleagues espouse right wing views and refuse to join the union?

Why have the Brits become so obsessed, unhealthily so imo, with the headline rate of income tax but continue to moan and whine about terrible train networks and public services, and an underfunded NHS?

Why do no politicians on the Left ever want to break down clearly the improvements that could be made for a few pence more on income tax for the mainly middle classes who surely could have done without some of the ostentatious excesses we've all seen since the 90s boom?

One of the worst things to ever happen to the Labour Party and to the UK as a whole was the death of John Smith, hardly a left winger in Labour terms but an inclusive and credible leader.

You have a bit of quantum entanglement in that first sentence. I'll untangle it for you because you are my friend.


Some successful political movements bring about substantial change for the world or for a certain geographic region; for instance the American and French Revolutions and the rise of Simon Bolivar and revolutions in South America to give western examples. Some unsuccessful political movements (lasting less than decades lets say) also bring about substantial change for the world or for a certain geographic region, for example the rise of Fascism in Europe between the two world wars, or the 1911 Chinese revolution against the Qing Dynasty.

It is also contentious and very subjective as to what is really a successful political movement and more importantly, what is really progress in a political sense. See Machiavelli, Cicero, and that blowhard, Plato for some historical updates. Gibbon and Thucydides are excellent resources also, which is why they are largely ignored about this place*.

*this place being a pejorative term for the politics circus of 2+2.

Bloody colonists, any excuse to bring it up

Deluded, vainglorious* posturing a la Corbyn leads to unsuccessful movements, entangling the left of British politics in a cluster**** of a civil war and giving the right free rein to rule for 15 years plus.

*More vain than glorious.

The best part of this circus is when those who would be high wire acts come crashing down.

u bluddy wot m8

So the 16 million people who voted Remain are to go to prison for treason now.

The UK may need those foreign workers after all.

im oddly fascinated by this story http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016...-approached-t/

how in the world can you carry out cost/benefit analysis on a showpiece boat? cost: a massive amount of money, benefit: it floats, hopefully.

Latest Ipsos Mori poll

I'm surprised labour are doing that well.


Also, I think they can just lump in Con and UKIP together, there's very little difference these days

If ever anything sums up Labour these days it's the Witney by election. All those new members joining the party, locally it more than doubled in size from around 500 to over 1200, and yet it's share of the vote has gone down and it's dropped from 2nd to 3rd place.

I'm not referring to revolutions - when have they ever achieved anyhting worthwhile

Success can be moving the center significantly in the movements direction, or specific large achievements that stick for a significant amount of time. The post war labout parties welfare state is an example of a good one, Thatcherism is an example of a bad one and if it happens brexit will be a very bad but incredible success for Farage & co (good/bad is imo of course)

There's something about this I don't buy. The Torys are up 10 points on 2015 with Labour and Lib Dems staying roughly where they are. Supposedly all those northern red fortresses which UKIP did quite well in are all going to go blue?

Also, is it just English constituencies? SNP account for about 5% of the 2015 vote.

I think they only include parties who are contesting seats nationwide.

*Edit, just checked the Ipsos Mori page for more detail and it has 'other parties' at 7% so this would include the SNP etc

Hmm that's what I figured. Seems like it could really distort the results of a Westminster election

See the edit I included. There shouldn't be any distortion.

The polling averages make for interesting viewing

Yes, it shows big swings are possible in relatively short time frames, which depends on a variety of factors (not least the quality of the surveying. It shows that people's ideas fluctuate.

Looks pretty in-keeping with the qualitative narrative to me:

New PM gets a honeymoon bounce
Tory party in turmoil in the run-up to the referendum where its politicians are all disagreeing with each other
UKIP falling apart after winning its single goal
Nobody anywhere talking about the lib dems

Part of the Tory bounce will also be UKIP members heading back there.
Labour on a downward slope since April and it's continuing.