I mentioned the 'Battle of Orgreave' in another thread. The problems with the South Yorkshire police were not limited to Hillsborough.

Now Scargill is demanding an inquiry.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p03t19js

Just read that Ken Livingstone said it was a "great catastrophe" and "fundamentally wrong" to create Israel, in an interview he did on the 20th of last month. He is done. He ain't coming back from that.

Well, he isn't going to be allowed to run for Sadiq Khan's seat in Tooting. It was on the cards, but a Labour source told the Standard, 'It's deffo not going to happen now.'

"The creation of the state of Israel was fundamentally wrong because there had been a Palestinian community there for 2,000 years. The creation of the state of Israel was a great catastrophe. We should have absorbed the post WW11 Jewish refugees in Britain and America."

Being historically correct does not equal anti-semitism. The demonisation of Livingstone is perverse, labelling the man as an anti-semite is obviously completely ludicrous for a man of his anti-racist and anti-fascist credentials.

As to what he said -

The zionist movement in the 30s had what might be considered a convenient parallel with Hitler's vision - Hitler wanted to deport Jews from Germany/the zionists wanted Jews to move to what was formerly Palestine to create a 'Jewish' state between the Tigris and the Euphrates. I can look up quotes from leading zionist figures to prove this if necessary.

Let's not also forget how implicated western imperialism is in the whole affair, in fact, this is central/key to understanding the situation. First the British exploited the conflict to keep down Palestinian resistance, next the US post WW2 expanded the Isreali state to create a powerful military ally in the turbulent oil rich region. This continues, hence the current assault on the pro-palestine voice in Labour (and the convenient uncomfortable position for Corbyn etc etc).

Should the US ever drop Israel, then Isreal will need a new backer as it is so heavily reliant on US investment (mostly military) - which I'm guessing is where the whole 'move Isreal to the US' thing comes from.

A bit more context - the US, Isreal is part of an axis which includes well known 'human rights abuse' states such as Saudi Arabia, for those who fail to accept the human rights abuses of Israel and the US, at least examine the company they keep.

your pony is antisemitic

Right and if I argued that the aims of Universal Negro Improvement Association had some parallels with those racists that wanted black people segregated from white people just what work would that be doing. In what sense is that germane to a discussion of racism now? In what sense did Livingstone's comments address the point posed raised with him.

In any case even if we are talking specifically of the Haavara agreement there were clear disagreements amongst Zionists, to suggest that Zionists spoke with one voice would be wrong but it would also be to ignore the specific circumstances under which the agreement was formed.

Fwiw I don't think Labour does have a specific problem with anti-semitism but it really doesn't help when prominent Labor politicians say stupid ****.

I don't know the background to Livingstone's discussion or why he brought the issue up - which is actually the point isn't it? To jump on 'something he said' something dark, terrible and bad, for the right wing press to gush over, repeat, act shocked and generally create a hostile environment for anybody who might want to discuss anything relevant.

I've never heard of the Negro Universal Improvement Association - though I understand your point I think, but it doesn't seem that relevant since we'd have to forget the forced removal of millions of Palestinians, deaths, the aparteid wall which dwarfs all preceding separation walls etc etc ie. context.

Yes no doubt 'the zionists' had disagreements, as all organisations of more than one person do, it doesn't actually change what zionism fundamentally is.

His comments should be placed within the context of the discussion he was asked to opine on. He was being asked about anti-semitism in the party, claimed he had never witnessed any then went on to recall that Hitler was supporting Zionism. There are a couple of problems with this, firstly it's not relevant to the topic under discussion, there are contexts in which it's an appropriate point to raise but this isn't one of them. The other problem is that it's a very superficial reading of history and on topics of such sensitivity the bar is higher.

You mention later that you don't know the context. The recent context for the old comments is still available and well worth watching imo http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode...itics-28042016

I'm not in favour of labeling or demonization either - these are generally silly, lazy and unhelpful things to do. But front line politicians have to meet a higher standard that simply not being racist/etc. Ken leap over that 'PC' line and seems determined to stay there. That's likely to end him politically, hurt the left of the Labour party, offend many jewish people, feed antisemitism and hurt the Palestinian cause.

At some point don't you ask yourself: wtf Ken?

Will watch it when not on phone. It would be worse if he back-tracked imo. Too much of that already from the current leadership who could learn a bit from Ken about sticking to your guns - remembering McDonnell backtracking over the IRA comment for example, or the U-turn over the EU.

Norman Finkelstein, an American Princeton Ph.D whose mother survived Maidanek and whose father survived Auschwitz but who doesn't like the Zionist project much, posted a joke map on his blog with the tiny outline of Israel in the middle of the US and suggested that, as Americans are so keen on Israelis (and a lot of Israelis have arrived from the US quite recently), maybe Israelis should relocate to the US, where everybody loves them apparently, and this would mitigate the strife in the Middle East.

In 2014, someone reposted this on Facebook and a young British woman called Naz Shah from Bradford, England, posted a comment jokily approving of it. In 2015, in the British general election, Shah was elected Labour MP for Bradford West in place of the ridiculous 'Respect' incumbent George Galloway.

It is probably true that British Pakistanis in Bradford do not like Israel and are commonly anti-Semitic. However a member of the Bradford synagogue has told the BBC that Shah is not remotely anti-Semitic and has always been friendly and helped them get the roof fixed and that kind of thing.

Nevertheless, a few weeks ago someone, for some reason, dug out that Facebook post to try and discredit Shah. The Parliamentary Labour Party 'withdrew the whip' from Shah, so she is technically now sitting as an independent. Shah immediately apologised for the post, stating, 'Anti-Semitism is racism, full stop.'

Ken Livingstone then waded in -- as former Labour Home Secretary Alan Johnson says, 'No problem that the Labour Party ever faces is so bad that it can't be made worse by Ken Livingstone' -- and Citizen Ken rather irrelevantly pointed out that Hitler was OK with German-Jewish emigration to Palestine in the '30s; if indeed that was what he meant by saying that Hitler once favoured Zionism, and if he even had the faintest idea what he was talking about.

As for Ken calling the creation of Israel a 'catastrophe': Palestinians refer to the loss of their homeland in 1948 as al-Nakba, 'the Catastrophe'. But in politics you should take care to call it 'a catastrophe for the Palestinians,' since it was obviously fine for the Zionist settlers, many of them traumatised Displaced Persons flooding out of Europe, and you can then point out how it's distorted the politics of the region and the world. But see Alan Johnson's comment above.

Have watched it. Thought he did well to restrain himself and not leap over the desk and throttle the vermin Andrew Neil and take out the faceless, opinion-less, spineless non-entity Nick 'tuition fees' Clegg while he's at it.

Clearly this is an attempt by Bryant, John Mann - who's staged 'protest' at Ken was so obviously for the cameras, and the string of other right wing Labour Party figures mentioned by the rat Neil, to dis-lodge Corbyn. He needs to stay strong here and put down these treacherous Blairites before they becomes even more cancerous. WP Ken.

I'd just add that it's very difficult to 'say the right thing' when you're being hounded like this. It's easy for the likes of Alan 'please brief me on my views before this press conference' Johnson but more difficult when you actually believe in stuff and are dealing with wathes of straw men from Andrew Neil et al.

Still, Ken has been long enough in the business to know how your words can be seized on and blown up and twisted and God knows what, so he either wasn't bringing his best game or he was just being a Dave Spart. And he's now lost his chance to stand for Sadiq Khan's seat and get back into the Commons.

Meanwhile, Mayor Khan has politely declined would-be President Trump's offer to make a special exception to allow him into the United States despite being one of those scary brown Muslim-type folks.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-36256087

Lol at thinking defending an obvious anti-Semite who said the creation of Israel was a catastrophe and fundamentally wrong is a good move for Corbyn.

BTW another Corbynite is under fire for suggesting last year that a Labour led Britain could apologise for creating Israel back after WW2.

Corbyn will struggle to survive if he guts his entire support of anti Semitic idiots. He is screwed for sure if he doesn't.

This isn't a conspiracy, it is the far left or labour clearly being out of touch with reality to the point their views are unelectable.

I am just waiting for the line to be drawn between Corbynites hating Israel and others including Corbyn himself loving Hamas and Hezbollah.

Pretty sure some high up judge declared Ken Livingstone is not an anti-Semite in the video linked above. But never mind facts when there's a good witch-hunt to be had. Obviously 60% of the party are anti-Semitic idiots - that's a good 300 000 - they could form blackshirts of their own with Ken leading the Nazi salute.
The 'un-electable' argument was had back in the 80s and 90s and led to Thatcher's son the war criminal Tony Blair after the left caved in. BTW people doubted Corbyn could win the Labour leadership, he has proved them wrong. He may prove them wrong again in 2020 - now that would get the right squirming... rooting for it

The fact Labour weren't hoovering up seats at the elections last week doesn't bode well for Corbyn. The combination of a Conservative government in power for a number of years, implementing many unpopular austerity measures should be an open goal for any Labour leader, even if it's only council elections.

Hmm. According to a Guardian report cited in Naz Shah's Wiki bio, the original mention of Shah's Facebook comment came from Paul Staines, aka Guido Fawkes, notorious far-right 'libertarian' Tory blogger and muckraker.

This was clearly to tie in with the Tory campaign against Sadiq Khan in the London mayoral election, a campaign orchestrated by Lynton Crosby's black-propaganda agency. The Tories' not-too-subtly racist claim was that Khan was some kind of dangerous 'radical'.

Naz Shah, of course, like Khan, was a Muslim Labour MP. And the Tories were trying to paint Labour as anti-Semitic, and the media played along in their usual manner. And where do most British Jews live? In Barnet and Camden in north London. Khan polled badly in Barnet and Camden, and reporters attributed this to the manufactured 'anti-Semitism' row. Barnet can be quite Tory, but Camden is solid Labour, as a rule.

Ken's intervention was just an unexpected bonus for the Tories. The target was Naz Shah, and by racist implication Sadiq Khan. So, nothing to do with 'Blairite Labour MPs' as Ken imagined. John Mann MP, who was absurdly yelling 'Nazi apologist!' at Ken, isn't a Corbyn supporter, true -- but he does chair the All-Party Parliamentary Group Against Anti-Semitism and he probably didn't appreciate Ken dropping Labour in the soup at a time like that.

Its not a manufactured row, you need to take your blinkers off son.

There is criticism coming from all sides.

The idea that Tories forced a series of labour party members including senior figures and MPs to make anti Semitic remarks is ****ing stupid.

This attitude is why this is going to turn from a small blunder into a disaster. For you. I mean i don't care if Corbyn implodes i want a proper opposition to the Tories and that limp weak ****e idiot ain't going to bring it when he has surrounded himself with a court of jesters.

All Brits are anti-Semitic, they inherited it from Romans. Just live with it and move on. Starting hating the welsh more if it well help appease your conscience a bit.

Its so Phill to dance to the tune.

Took 18 years for the last Tory Government to topple, it's early days for this lot. If they get booted out in 2020 that would be a massive achievement for Labour but first they'll have to deal with dissent in their own ranks. The success of the SNP is a good model - they managed to pose as the anti-austerity party and had every corner singing the same tune, Corbyn and Co have the benefit of actually meaning it, his internal opponents need to get with the programme. With Corbyn's support from the wider membership they have no chance of ousting him so all they are doing is contributing to the internal row and preventing them from forming a credible opposition. Corbyn's downside is his lack of ruthlessless but that is also part of his appeal so who am I to judge.

In a way it doesn't matter if Labour win, what Corbyn has proven is that it's possible to have an alternative political mainstream discourse today which you can't understate the significance of - this is massive after the Blair years.

Unfortunately for you Corbyn has a massive majority of support and his leadership has led to exponential membership growth so his opponents will have to put up and shut up if they genuinely want to bring down the Tories.

When you are defending the majority of seats hoovering up gains isn't easy, the LD's were somewhat rejuvenated picking up from the Tory losses but there's a long way to go till 2020.