Two Plus Two Publishing LLC Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
 

Go Back   Two Plus Two Poker Forums > >

Notices

Politics political discourse

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 08-01-2012, 10:11 PM   #101
chezlaw
Limey Bastard
 
chezlaw's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: London
Posts: 32,936
Re: UK Politarding Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by SavageTilt View Post
I see where you're going with the Howe comparison, but iirc Howe had a lot more respect among the party coming into the job and the fact that he was seen as temperamentally different from Thatcher insulated him from a lot of the criticism aimed at here. Osborne had no experience of government before entering the Treasury and is just a copy of Cameron.
Politicians in general were a much higher caliber in those days. Howe did have more respect but then so did the alternatives. Howe took a lot of flack during the bad days and if the tories had lost the election he would have been badly damaged. All the downside he was blamed for at the time was later seen as wise.


Here is a fun snippet from wiki

Quote:
Howe's famous 1981 Budget defied conventional economic wisdom at the time by deflating the economy at a time of recession. At the time, his decision was fiercely criticised by 364 academic economists in a letter to The Times, who contended that there was no place for de-stimulatory policies in the economic climate of the time, remarking the Budget had "no basis in economic theory or supporting evidence". Many signatories were prominent members of the academic sphere, including now-Governor of the Bank of England, Mervyn King.
chezlaw is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-03-2012, 10:00 AM   #102
Doctor Zeus
adept
 
Doctor Zeus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Laaaaandaaaan
Posts: 942
Re: UK Politarding Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by O.A.F.K.1.1 View Post
Perhaps I am unable to see the posts of some posters.

Nice cheap and completely incorrect cheap shot though.
You more or less said austerity was merely deficit reduction. Thats deficit reduction, not austerity. Its earlier in the thread.
Doctor Zeus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-03-2012, 10:04 AM   #103
Doctor Zeus
adept
 
Doctor Zeus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Laaaaandaaaan
Posts: 942
Re: UK Politarding Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by O.A.F.K.1.1 View Post
If you owe X lots of money and the rate you are increasing your debt is increasing 24 Billion a month, you dont want X to charge you more to borrow, especially when any increase in costs would also be passed on private borrowers, which in Britain have the highest debt per capita in the world (an issue Leeds fan keeps dodging due to his vacuum of intellectual honesty.) This is completely ignoring any issues of Mal investment which I will get into later when I have more time.
There is nothing I disagree with here. You argued earlier in this thread that deficit reduction was austerity. No one disagrees with deficit reduction, merely the methods.


Quote:
Borrowing even more (when it is perecieved by lenders that you are at your absolute borrowing limit) increases risk of default, therefore increases risk of borrowing. I actually think in a vacuum that government spending in a recession is a good idea, much better than the horribly inequity of quantitive easing, however its not such a great idea when the fiscal situation is so utterly ****ed up. (Of course we could seize land or legalize drugs.....lol...leeds fan lol)
Raise taxes? Seize oil? Legalize drugs? These are all pretty good ideas.
The only argument against raising taxes is some bull**** laffer curve, which fails to see how far off we are. Capital flight won't take place if we do it properly, and smartly.
Legalizing drugs is a no brainer. On so many way.
Seize oil= We could be Scandinavia rich if we didn't nationalize it.
I'm for borrowing if we can do it correctly, but we probably can't as you say. That doesn't mean we turn to austerity.

Quote:
[
Its also important to understand that GDP can be a very misleading statistic. Upto the crash we had strong GDP figures, but the economic factors driving that GDP growth (unsustainable credit expansion) were baking economic disaster into the cake. If we could get banks to lend like they were in 2004 again, there would be massive GDP growth tommorrow, should we do that, of course not, because it would just mean a bigger crash. Its important to escape what Will Self calls the fetishisation of GDP were anything that increases GDP is seen as an a priori good. Things that increase GDP can be terrible for the economy in the long term, such as a government borrowing even more just to push string. Thats not to say dont seek to increase GDP, of course, but you must do it sustainably.
True that.
Doctor Zeus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-03-2012, 10:08 AM   #104
Doctor Zeus
adept
 
Doctor Zeus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Laaaaandaaaan
Posts: 942
Re: UK Politarding Thread

There's talk of getting rid of Ken Clark which would be the worst move ever. I love that guy. But it would mean moving IDS away from Welfare.... Oo apple and oranges.

Also, big news regarding the Tories and Lords reform. Dropping it=end of Nick Clegg? Anyone wanna bet on lines on this-
1) Nick Clegg leader of Lib Dems next election?
2) Coalition over by New Year?
Doctor Zeus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-03-2012, 01:20 PM   #105
O.A.F.K.1.1
Ted Patrick
 
O.A.F.K.1.1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Deep Coma
Posts: 20,843
Re: UK Politarding Thread

Quote:
Raise taxes? Seize oil? Legalize drugs? These are all pretty good ideas.
The only argument against raising taxes is some bull**** laffer curve, which fails to see how far off we are. Capital flight won't take place if we do it properly, and smartly.
Legalizing drugs is a no brainer. On so many way.
Seize oil= We could be Scandinavia rich if we didn't nationalize it.
They might (very debatable imo apart from the legalize drugs which is a no brainer) be good ideas, but they are for all intents and purposes fantastical ideas(apart from raise taxes LDO), that have no relation to a possible political reality and the seizing land one is very dodgy on ethical grounds and probably raises didley squat in terms of reducing a 24B a month deficit.
O.A.F.K.1.1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-03-2012, 07:26 PM   #106
SuperSic
enthusiast
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Not ballin', or shot callin'
Posts: 93
Re: UK Politarding Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Doctor Zeus View Post
Also, big news regarding the Tories and Lords reform. Dropping it=end of Nick Clegg? Anyone wanna bet on lines on this-
1) Nick Clegg leader of Lib Dems next election?
2) Coalition over by New Year?
1)2/3
2)6/1

Plucked out of my arse though.

Someone "in the know" tells me Clegg was offered a choice between Lords reform or scaling back the Health and Social Care Bill and chose the former. Of course it's only heresay but if it's true, and someone comes out and says it, Cleggy would be finished.
SuperSic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-06-2012, 07:34 AM   #107
Doctor Zeus
adept
 
Doctor Zeus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Laaaaandaaaan
Posts: 942
Re: UK Politarding Thread

Louise Mensch retires after 2 months.

Some MP's are such fckwits. Seriously, how did she not realise she would have to work hard?
Also find it hilarious how kids seem to be with her, and her hubby is in New York as manager of RHCP. I don't know much about managing rock bands, but couldn't the husband be the one travelling lots? Her job literally has to be in UK, I'd presume he could easily to and fro

CITE innit
Doctor Zeus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-06-2012, 07:41 AM   #108
Doctor Zeus
adept
 
Doctor Zeus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Laaaaandaaaan
Posts: 942
Re: UK Politarding Thread

Source on how much revenue legalising drugs. No idea about the quality of sources. £1/tab on ecstasy vs £15/gram on cocaine is pretty interesting.

Here's visualisation on link

Would make 1/2bn a month. Good start!
The seizing land issue wouldn't happen, true that.
Doctor Zeus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-06-2012, 12:03 PM   #109
DiegoArmando
veteran
 
DiegoArmando's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Europe
Posts: 2,736
Re: UK Politarding Thread

lol..you crazy bro
DiegoArmando is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-08-2012, 11:36 PM   #110
Make Them Dig
grinder
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: London
Posts: 433
Re: UK Politarding Thread

Legalizing drugs is obv one of those sensible things that no sane politician can ever go near. The press would tear them to shreds. No amount of rational argument will make a difference in the short-mid term.
Make Them Dig is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-25-2012, 06:52 AM   #111
Doctor Zeus
adept
 
Doctor Zeus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Laaaaandaaaan
Posts: 942
Re: UK Politarding Thread

I really hope Ken Clark takes over from Georgy O'

And Gove gets moved to justice or something where he'll do less damage than schools.
Doctor Zeus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-22-2014, 08:56 PM   #112
BertieWooster
veteran
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 3,308
Re: UK Politarding Thread

lollocalelections and all, but UKIP are doing work.

The big three are really making it easy for them, a master class in how to alienate yourself to the average voter and open the door for protest parties.
BertieWooster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-22-2014, 09:37 PM   #113
S.K
Toffees >> Jellybeans
 
S.K's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 8,677
Powww. Ukip killing it in New Orleans
S.K is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-22-2014, 10:22 PM   #114
[Phill]
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
[Phill]'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 52,513
Re: UK Politarding Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by BertieWooster View Post
lollocalelections and all, but UKIP are doing work.

The big three are really making it easy for them, a master class in how to alienate yourself to the average voter and open the door for protest parties.
An election for an MEP is pretty much the exact opposite of a local election.

Anyway, UKIP can go suck a Bulgarian dick and anyone who voted for them can do so twice. ****ing racists.
[Phill] is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-22-2014, 10:26 PM   #115
Huehuecoyotl
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Huehuecoyotl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: It's hard to get by on a smile
Posts: 23,025
Lol UKIP is winning because the other parties are elitist or blame the lower middle classes for their own problems. The UKIP would be wise to run a Nixionian 'Southern Strategy' because it appeals to working class white Brits who face increasing competition from immigrants. It really doesn't matter that the politicians from UKIP are elitist, they are speaking a nativist populist language.
Huehuecoyotl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-22-2014, 10:38 PM   #116
[Phill]
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
[Phill]'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 52,513
Re: UK Politarding Thread

UKIP wins because the mass media is ****ing garbage when it comes to immigration where at best they dont correct the lies, at worst (Daily Mail) they are at least as racist as UKIP.

They literally ran a campaign that had adverts with tag lines like 'vote UKIP to stop 25 million unemployed Bulgarians from coming to take your job'. Farage has said he would prefer less immigrants even if it was worse for Britain. They are just a bunch of racist ****s and the people who vote for them are at best braindead drones.
[Phill] is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-23-2014, 02:46 AM   #117
O.A.F.K.1.1
Ted Patrick
 
O.A.F.K.1.1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Deep Coma
Posts: 20,843
Re: UK Politarding Thread

UKIP mostly taking votes from Tories ftw tho.
O.A.F.K.1.1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-23-2014, 03:39 AM   #118
Gin 'n Tonic
Pooh-Bah
 
Gin 'n Tonic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Reclining my seat
Posts: 5,897
Re: UK Politarding Thread

Yup, UKIP has pretty much become the acceptable face of racism in the UK and it's ****ing disgusting how much support they get. There's a reason that no-one mentions the BNP any more.

The agenda of much of the right wing press is 'here are the immigrants - stealing your jobs, stealing your benefits, coming over here to use the NHS and generally not speaking English'.

I had hoped that we were better than this, it's a sad state of affairs when this kind of rhetoric becomes almost mainstream.

I hate the way that 'immigrants' has become this sort of acceptable catch-all term for anyone 'not like us'. Whilst homophobia and racism are not acceptable things to express it seems to have become acceptable in some quarters to broad-brush attack this section of the community without the opprobrium that such attacks would generate were they levelled elsewhere.

I'd like to punch Farage in his smug, arrogant face.
Gin 'n Tonic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-23-2014, 06:41 AM   #119
BertieWooster
veteran
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 3,308
Re: UK Politarding Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by [Phill] View Post
An election for an MEP is pretty much the exact opposite of a local election.

Anyway, UKIP can go suck a Bulgarian dick and anyone who voted for them can do so twice. ****ing racists.
results that came out last night and today were for the locals. EU results come out on Sunday or Monday.
BertieWooster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-23-2014, 06:45 AM   #120
BertieWooster
veteran
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 3,308
Re: UK Politarding Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by O.A.F.K.1.1 View Post
UKIP mostly taking votes from Tories ftw tho.
Don't underestimate how many they're taking off Labour too, pre-2010 they were taking more from Labour than the Tories. There's still a non-zero chance the Tories and UKIP will do some sort of deal, although you'd imagine that a deal would really hurt UKIP's standing as the protest party.
BertieWooster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-23-2014, 11:50 AM   #121
chuBuBBawuB
centurion
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 115
Re: UK Politarding Thread

Sure it sucks that UKIP are gonna get a bunch of MEPs and increased councillors, but don't get too worked up about it. They are still drawing dead in a general election unless they severely alter the level of nuttiness in their policies. A huge % of the people who vote in generals but not local/Europeans are moderates who don't hold strong enough views on any particular party to turn up at the 'minor' elections but want to have a say on who their MP or PM is. Very unlikely that these people vote UKIP and that's why they always slump in a general election. All Labour/Tories need to do is stop being such idiots in terms of alienating their voters by constantly sounding like ****ty PR robots. Whichever of those 2 does that best will win next year imo.
chuBuBBawuB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-23-2014, 01:16 PM   #122
sixfour
should be called sevenfour
 
sixfour's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Fire Rod Harrington
Posts: 58,132
Re: UK Politarding Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by chuBuBBawuB View Post
All Labour/Tories need to do is stop being such idiots in terms of alienating their voters by constantly sounding like ****ty PR robots.
Maybe if they do that, and hadn't both lied about giving us a referendum on major EU issues, people wouldn't vote UKIP. But why do that when they can just peddle racism smears and similar garbage, it's much easier
sixfour is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-23-2014, 02:25 PM   #123
[Phill]
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
[Phill]'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 52,513
Re: UK Politarding Thread

Quote:
They are still drawing dead in a general election unless they severely alter the level of nuttiness in their policies.
The problem is they shift the line to the right. Even Labour is far to the right on immigration policy, pretty much where the Tories should be. **** even the Lib Dems are quite far to the right, they should be the policy party talking up the benefits of widespread immigration, largely copying the policies of the other two larger parties in a basically three party system is just pathetic.

The problem I have is there is a general election in a year and whilst my area is a lock to vote Labour (making my vote effectively meaningless) I will still do so on principle and immigration is one of the policies I will evaluate on.

I refuse to vote Labour for running a huge deficit much of it off the books during a boom, at least until we are a full generation away from the Blair and Brown years.

Lib Dems have slid backwards as they decided to transition from never expecting power to really hoping for another coalition government so they have more realistic policies - no tuition fees was a ****ing joke policy but the rest was decent and principled social progressiveness, they have actually done a lot of good in the coalition and should be 100% proud of everything they have had implemented such as removing the income tax on the lowest earners, of course they then went and got behind the ****ing bedroom tax and all that other bollocks.

While the Tories are doing well on the economy given the difficult starting position they are seriously in danger of losing my meaningless support if they move to the right on social policies to block UKIP drawing away support. I fully support NHS reform and the idea by Labour that everything is great and doesnt need to be changed, just throw more money at it is a joke.

-----

Anyway, I figure this all comes down to what Scotland decides. If they vote yes to independent its Conservative all the way down, hopefully they are smart and abandon the fringe right and start talking sense, I would dig that. If they vote no then I figure we are in a Lab-Lib coalition short of the economy doing really well (and people feeling it).
[Phill] is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-23-2014, 02:27 PM   #124
chuBuBBawuB
centurion
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 115
Re: UK Politarding Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by sixfour View Post
Maybe if they do that, and hadn't both lied about giving us a referendum on major EU issues, people wouldn't vote UKIP. But why do that when they can just peddle racism smears and similar garbage, it's much easier
Agreed that the racism/homophobic card is being played more than is probably warranted. But it is not completely untrue. There are only so many major gaffes a party can make without getting this tag. Bloom, Silvester and very recently Farage himself are obvious examples. You hardly see the 3 big parties making these kind of comments ever and only in the very recent past there are numerous examples of UKIP saying these things. So you can't just dismiss it out of hand. They need to deal with it. Also wrt smears, **** is being flung both ways, you just have to look harder to see the crap UKIP has tried to pull.

Obviously people are going to assume that because more people voted UKIP those people are very interested in having the EU referendum. I mean it's basically all that UKIP are about. tbh I don't see this as necessarily being the case. There are the hardcore UKIP supporters who hate everything the EU stands for and then there are the people who wanted to make a protest vote against the political classes. Often in the past those votes would go to LibDems but that was never gonna happen this time so they basically all went to UKIP. Tough to know the exact proportion of UKIP voters that fell into each camp but imo the protest voters make up a big %.
chuBuBBawuB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-23-2014, 02:38 PM   #125
chuBuBBawuB
centurion
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 115
Re: UK Politarding Thread

Tonnes of sense in that post Phill.
chuBuBBawuB is offline   Reply With Quote

Reply
      

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 04:11 AM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © 2008-2010, Two Plus Two Interactive
 
 
Poker Players - Streaming Live Online