Trump’s America - Page 55 - Politics and Economics

I speak out on injustice. What happened to this man in Chicago was terrible. It was criminal. I hate it, but guess what — justice was swift. It was miraculously swift.

Justice is always swift and easy when black folk mess up, but you know who’s not in jail right now? (insert names here)

01-05-2017 , 07:52 PM

#1354

master3004

Revisionist Historian

Join Date: Mar 2010 Posts: 56,419

That is an incredible article

01-05-2017 , 08:11 PM

#1355

awval999

Election Monitor.

Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 6,269

King is right though.

These four will get decades in prison for this.

Sensationalizing it as a "hate crime" will only bring retribution.

Do we really want to see 4 white dudes from Alabama doing this to a handicapped black dude?

Last edited by awval999; 01-05-2017 at 08:15 PM. Reason: And of course King followed up his article tweeting the number of death threats. He's in the racism industry.

01-05-2017 , 08:20 PM

#1356

Loki

binary duo

Join Date: Nov 2015 Posts: 12,772

how does pointing out that it's a hate crime require alabama racists to do some retribution? What's the logical mechanism by which those two things are connected?

01-05-2017 , 08:22 PM

#1357

Autocratic

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 11,276

Quote:

Originally Posted by Noodle Wazlib

how does pointing out that it's a hate crime require alabama racists to do some retribution? What's the logical mechanism by which those two things are connected?

The contingent of the white supremacist movement in Alabama that is willing to kidnap and torture mentally handicapped folks only retaliates based on the formal charges presented.

I realize we are in a post-fact world but this is very common knowledge and you should be deeply embarrassed.

01-05-2017 , 08:22 PM

#1358

Loki

binary duo

Join Date: Nov 2015 Posts: 12,772

dang, how did I miss that? Thanks for opening my eyes!

01-05-2017 , 09:58 PM

#1359

Trolly McTrollson

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Historically, hate crimes are designed to intimidate/harass a broader community of people, so there's some justification in treating them a bit more severely. If I target a gay man and beat the **** out of him, I'm implicitly threatening a larger gay community and making many people feel unsafe. By contrast, if I beat the **** out of some guy in a road rage incident that larger threat isn't present.

Essentially, all crimes matter but in some cases there's an additional layer of injustice.

01-05-2017 , 11:09 PM

#1360

kerowo

lolcat

Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 37,190

There is a "thought crime" element to hate crimes that I don't care for. I'd prefer it only get used when the accused have stated someplace that they are targeting the victim because of membership in a protected class instead of having to guess at their state of mind.

01-05-2017 , 11:15 PM

#1361

Loki

binary duo

Join Date: Nov 2015 Posts: 12,772

Alternatively, if you don't want convicted of a hate crime, don't commit a normal crime.

01-05-2017 , 11:18 PM

#1362

iron81

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 17,729

Quote:

Originally Posted by kerowo

This is exactly how 99% of hate crime charges are proven.

01-05-2017 , 11:21 PM

#1363

suzzer99

Save the Cheerleader, Save the World

Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 99,984

In least surprising news ever - Mexico will not be paying for the wall. So to sum up - poor people who voted for Trump out of economic anxiety - your Medicare, Social Security, Planned Parenthood, Obamacare, and who knows what else is under threat. But on the plus side - you get to pay for a boondoggle wall with your tax dollars. Which you'll be paying a higher % of - since tax breaks for the wealthy is first on the agenda. Oh yeah, Trump is also buddy-buddy with Clinton again. She's not getting locked up, and he just pulled off the greatest con of all time.

01-05-2017 , 11:22 PM

#1364

+rep_lol

banned

Join Date: Sep 2013 Posts: 14,900

how the **** does chezlawl have a ****ing green name now, and i can't ignore/hide his ****ing aids anymore?

01-05-2017 , 11:28 PM

#1365

Trolly McTrollson

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Join Date: Oct 2010 Posts: 36,711

Quote:

Originally Posted by kerowo

Not sure how that makes it a "thought crime." Motive plays a role in how charges are meted out all the time.

01-05-2017 , 11:29 PM

#1366

Huehuecoyotl

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Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 29,257

Quote:

Originally Posted by kerowo

Thought crime sounds bad but it's not categorically different than what we do all the time trying to assess "intent" and "malice".

01-05-2017 , 11:32 PM

#1367

grizy

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Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 20,568

Quote:

Originally Posted by iron81

This is exactly how 99% of hate crime charges are proven.

That's really not enough. Hate crimes are notoriously difficult to prove short of "I am killing you now because you're xxx <of some legally cognizable characteristic>."

Even then, if there is some other plausible motive, prosecutors find it hard to prove (often they don't even try) beyond a reasonable doubt that the crime was a hate crime and not some other motive (such as parking dispute in Chapel Hill shootings).

01-05-2017 , 11:32 PM

#1368

kerowo

lolcat

Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 37,190

If you have someone who has no record of being anti-lgbt and they murder some lgbt person what is required for it to be a hate crime? How much of that is actual evidence and how much of that has to be guessed at what they are thinking?

01-06-2017 , 12:35 AM

#1369

iron81

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 17,729

In general, bias motivating the crime has to be proven beyond a reasonable doubt. A prosecutor charging someone with no history of hate won't be able to prove the charge. Evidence is used to guess at what is in the criminal's mind.

01-06-2017 , 01:15 AM

#1370

grizy

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 20,568

Quote:

Originally Posted by kerowo

As described basically impossible unless the killing was somehow done in a uniquely and gruesomely anti gay way (painting ****** over corpse wont cut it).

Assaulting a stranger on video while verbally abusing him/her for being xxx without a hint of mental disturbance would do the job. A confession of motives would work.

Hate crime can be roughly understood as a plus plus malice "thought crime." It SHOULD be difficult to prove.

Last edited by grizy; 01-06-2017 at 01:26 AM.

01-06-2017 , 01:26 AM

#1371

GTO2.0

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: May 2012 Posts: 3,780

Quote:

Originally Posted by kerowo

If you are actually interested in learning what evidence goes into charging and convicting someone of a hate crime, look up the murder trial of Elliot Morales in New York this past year. It is quite similar to the scenario you are raising, and includes the bonus fun bit of the defendant testifying and claiming that he was in fact gay himself and thus could not have shot a man in the face at point blank range out of hate for gay people.

01-06-2017 , 07:10 AM

#1372

5ive

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Oct 2012 Posts: 6,766

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lestat

...

When I hear the word welfare, I think of a system which locks people in a perpetual state of poverty and being married to the government in order to survive.

cuz right wing propaganda so fierce

01-06-2017 , 07:12 AM

#1373

JacktheDumb

old hand

Join Date: Apr 2013 Posts: 1,427

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trolly McTrollson

Seems odd, it assumes that someone is doing it with a agenda while often enough this agenda is just that those people are huge fools who don't know what huge fools they are.

01-06-2017 , 05:22 PM

#1374

Jiggymike

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 13,420

Republicans, fighting for the common working man as usual: https://www.thenation.com/article/wh...ult-on-unions/

01-06-2017 , 05:27 PM

#1375

aoFrantic

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Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 25,221

Jiggy, that will have no effect on wages or jobs though. Everything is obama's fault. It can't be that most blue states are doing pretty well and most red states are enacting right to work legislation and trying to kill unions, while having worse metrics for food stamps, education and everything the GOP decries. That would be some form of irony, or something.

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