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Old 09-13-2017, 04:46 PM   #3126
iamnotawerewolf
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Re: Trump's America

I wish to God our laws were enforced equitably.


President Pardon-My-Sheriff does not seem to agree.
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Old 09-13-2017, 04:47 PM   #3127
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Re: Trump's America

Quote:
Originally Posted by iamnotawerewolf View Post
goofyballer isn't making any arguments. he's just name-calling.
Oh?

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Originally Posted by goofyballer View Post
The idea that this money in his wallet = evidence is pretty ****ing dubious. Without having spent a significant amount of time watching the guy (and I know nobody here thinks the police were staking this guy out) the police don't know how much of it was actually the result of ILLICIT HOT DOG sales. Taking a photo of the money or having him sign a statement that he had $60 in his wallet or whatever accomplishes the same effect, evidence-wise, as confiscating the money itself.
You even conceded this point when you decided to tack over to "well sure this officer was bad but civil forfeiture is good". More gaslighting! This is why you're a troll and the proper response to you is not to "show work" but to tell you to shut the **** up.

So, shut the **** up.
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Old 09-13-2017, 04:52 PM   #3128
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Re: Trump's America

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Originally Posted by iamnotawerewolf View Post
I wish to God our laws were enforced equitably.


President Pardon-My-Sheriff does not seem to agree.
The unlicensed vendor is more the exception then the rule.


If you wish laws to be enforced equitably then not conducting civil forfeiture in this particular case is the way.

Advocating a policy of siezing all revenue for any infraction is profoundly stupid.
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Old 09-13-2017, 05:57 PM   #3129
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Re: Trump's America

there's a supreme court case that is similar to this vendor thing btw, its US v. Bajakajian.

you can get both the forfeiture and the fine but the forfeiture cant be disproportional to the fine amount.

eta- tldr version. guy gets stopped at customs with 350k leaving country without declaring, this is against law. Government seeks to fine him 5k and seize the 350. supreme court says they can seize but only 15k because 350k for a 5k fine is grossly disproportional to the fine amount.
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Old 09-13-2017, 06:06 PM   #3130
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Re: Trump's America

Is this real life? Motel 6 hotels sending guest lists to ICE.

http://thehill.com/latino/350510-mot...umented-guests

Quote:
Immigration attorney Denise Aguilar wrote The New Times in an email that some of her clients "have heard (no telling how valid the info is) that ICE is paying $200 per person for the front-desk clerk to report."
We'll leave the light on unless you're one of Them Latinos™

Last edited by fatkid; 09-13-2017 at 06:14 PM.
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Old 09-13-2017, 06:20 PM   #3131
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Re: Trump's America

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Is this real life? Motel 6 hotels sending guest lists to ICE.

http://thehill.com/latino/350510-mot...umented-guests



We'll leave the light on unless you're one of Them Latinos™
apparently that isnt new? i just googled it to find some other stories, and a couple come up from 2015 where motel 6 was giving the list of every guest to police every day.
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Old 09-13-2017, 06:43 PM   #3132
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Re: Trump's America

Goofy, I see you made the point I came to only later, but maybe I missed it because you framed it in terms of evidentiary relevance.



Slighted, I can't read the full opinion now, but from the wiki I grabbed this quote:


it bears no articulable correlation to any injury suffered by the Government


It looks like "forfeiture" was actually a misnomer, pretextual, for something that was actually intended to be punitive.
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Old 09-13-2017, 09:28 PM   #3133
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Re: Trump's America

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I was being more general. America's insane incarcerations rates will not subside until the distribution, possession, and use of almost all the most popular intoxicants is no longer a crime.

For weed and weed only I'm sure the private sector could handle it. For other, more destructive substances I'm not sure the profit motive should come into play, nor should the distributors be permitted to advertise under any circumstances. Pennsylvania's state run liquor stores would be the model.
When I struggled with drinking too much recently, it suddenly occurred to me that allowing advertising of alcohol is completely insane. Why is that a thing, why do we unleash the free market on it? It's not even like it helps smaller players compete in the market, 99% of the alcohol advertising I see is base spirits or awful mass market beer.

IDK what the legal issues are in the US, maybe it's harder to ban ads for First Amendment reasons? Here, advertising for tobacco and pharmaceuticals is completely banned, yet advertising for the most destructive drug on the planet is ubiquitous. It's really weird when you stop to think about it.

Edit: Just advertising prices is fine, I'm OK with that, I'm more talking about ads for brands.
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Old 09-13-2017, 09:36 PM   #3134
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Re: Trump's America

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When I struggled with drinking too much recently, it suddenly occurred to me that allowing advertising of alcohol is completely insane. Why is that a thing, why do we unleash the free market on it? It's not even like it helps smaller players compete in the market, 99% of the alcohol advertising I see is base spirits or awful mass market beer.

IDK what the legal issues are in the US, maybe it's harder to ban ads for First Amendment reasons? Here, advertising for tobacco and pharmaceuticals is completely banned, yet advertising for the most destructive drug on the planet is ubiquitous. It's really weird when you stop to think about it.

Edit: Just advertising prices is fine, I'm OK with that, I'm more talking about ads for brands.
Yes they have 1st amendment protections. There are some rules like they can only advertise after certain hours. I'm not sure how those came about. That's one reason why some don't want to make hard drugs legal because not only does it decriminalize them but it allows them to advertise them.
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Old 09-13-2017, 10:16 PM   #3135
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Re: Trump's America

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Originally Posted by iamnotawerewolf View Post
the guy is making money from an illegal enterprise

that money is ill-gotten

this is really not a difficult position
Plenty of upstanding oil and gas companies do the same and just pay a fine or settlement when they get caught.
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Old 09-13-2017, 10:22 PM   #3136
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Re: Trump's America

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Originally Posted by Slighted View Post
apparently that isnt new? i just googled it to find some other stories, and a couple come up from 2015 where motel 6 was giving the list of every guest to police every day.
That's bad but it's not the same as giving it to ICE. That's a different level of abhorrent.
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Old 09-14-2017, 05:34 AM   #3137
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Re: Trump's America

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I wasn't defending the police response. I was defending the idea of needing a permit to sell food to the public. Ideally, the only thing a police officer should be able to do in this sort of situation is write them a ticket and shut them down for the day. The money can be dealt with (via a fine) after the fact.
Yes.

If he's taking your money right out of your wallet, he's stealing it. There's no protocol that allows for that. Even asset forfeiture.
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Old 09-14-2017, 05:45 AM   #3138
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Re: Trump's America

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Originally Posted by microbet View Post
Libertarianism for me, totalitarianism for Mexicans.
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Old 09-14-2017, 05:52 AM   #3139
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Re: Trump's America

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Originally Posted by goofyballer View Post
NYT with a blurb on the hot dog vendor



The idea that this money in his wallet = evidence is pretty ****ing dubious. Without having spent a significant amount of time watching the guy (and I know nobody here thinks the police were staking this guy out) the police don't know how much of it was actually the result of ILLICIT HOT DOG sales. Taking a photo of the money or having him sign a statement that he had $60 in his wallet or whatever accomplishes the same effect, evidence-wise, as confiscating the money itself.

In any case, he'll be fine, and thank god that the rest of the public isn't afflicted with the same raised-by-wolves idiocy exhibited ITT:
Yeah, just to repeat myself within 3 posts, these cops have been stealing that money for quite awhile now, I'd suspect.
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Old 09-14-2017, 06:04 AM   #3140
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Re: Trump's America

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Originally Posted by iamnotawerewolf View Post
civil forfeiture is "on the books", man

reclamation of ill-gotten property - if society, via The Law, deems narcotics sales to be a common drain, then taking drug-money from a narcotics dealer and reinvesting back into society is reclamation

if you're a thief, your victims can ask to get their money back

etc



also, and I probably shouldn't nit given my unpopularity around here, but you will totally get towed if you don't remove that bucket of bolts!

lol what in the **** are you talking about?
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Old 09-14-2017, 06:17 AM   #3141
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Re: Trump's America

He thought "and reinvesting back into society" and then typed it AND THEN clicked "submit reply". Incredible.
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Old 09-14-2017, 06:26 AM   #3142
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Re: Trump's America

ianaw doesn't understand how civil forfeiture works but that "reinvesting back into society" line is a nice touch considering the ridiculous things police departments bought with their ill-gotten gains, eg. a Margarita machine.
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Old 09-14-2017, 06:34 AM   #3143
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Re: Trump's America

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Originally Posted by Louis Cyphre View Post
ianaw doesn't understand how civil forfeiture works but that "reinvesting back into society" line is a nice touch considering the ridiculous things police departments bought with their ill-gotten gains, eg. a Margarita machine.
Buying a margarita machine creates jobs in the margarita machine industry, so there's that.
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Old 09-14-2017, 07:36 AM   #3144
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Re: Trump's America

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Originally Posted by Huehuecoyotl View Post
Yes they have 1st amendment protections. There are some rules like they can only advertise after certain hours. I'm not sure how those came about. That's one reason why some don't want to make hard drugs legal because not only does it decriminalize them but it allows them to advertise them.
Advertising can be banned in the US. Tobacco companies cannot advertise.
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Old 09-14-2017, 07:51 AM   #3145
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Re: Trump's America

It seems like it cant be a first amendment issue if you can restrict people to advertise in certain hours. Thats speech restriction already
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Old 09-14-2017, 07:55 AM   #3146
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Re: Trump's America

I'm old enough to remember when cigarette ads were still a thing. IANAL, but I can't imagine there would be no constitutional issues with banning cigarette ads, but that there would be if we tried to ban beer ads.
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Old 09-14-2017, 07:59 AM   #3147
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Re: Trump's America

Eh? Whats the difference?
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Old 09-14-2017, 08:13 AM   #3148
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Re: Trump's America

That's what I was trying to say: there isn't a difference that I can think of. If tobacco ads can be banned so can beer ads.
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Old 09-14-2017, 08:41 AM   #3149
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Re: Trump's America

I'm told some people are bad parents

maybe we should eliminate parentage



some people are bad drivers

some can't sing
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Old 09-14-2017, 08:51 AM   #3150
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Re: Trump's America

I bet ~nobody actually read the black-letter law I posted from Georgia, especially those maintaining that I don't understand civil forfeiture.

Here's the federal law. Scroll down to (e) to see what is done with the property.

Quote:
(6) as restoration to any victim of the offense giving rise to the forfeiture, including, in the case of a money laundering offense, any offense constituting the underlying specified unlawful activity;
Yes, money that is released to law enforcement, for the purposes of enforcing the law, is money being invested into society - insofar as society is predicated upon the rule of law.


The law requires the issuance of a warrant by a judge or at least the existence of probable cause - which of course is reviewable. (b)(2)
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