How in the world did you get the idea that I don't think it's more complicated than that? Obviously it's more complicated than that. Every single thing we talk about on this forum is way more complicated than can be communicated in a single post. We can't even communicate here without dramatically over simplifying concepts. Is there something about all of this that makes you feel like you're the only one who knows it's more complicated that gives you the moral justification you need to be a self-righteous douche?

You seem angry. It's possible to oversimplify things to the point of being wrong. Just because kids get a lot of things wrong and judge the gender of others based on behaviors and looks doesn't mean we should be expecting them to misunderstand their own gender identity, which starts to form by age 3 and is more of an internal feeling than based on anything external. Your comment was dismissing of the need for the research I posted when, due to the complexity present here, it's most certainly necessary to do more research and look to simple intuition less.

And all of this misses what the conversation was about. I said that I wouldn't recommend acting irreversibly on the transgender feelings of a prepubertal child as those feeling may not persist. I was asked to provide a citation to support this view and did so. Hopefully you can see how your comment to that was therefore out of place.

That's odd, I thought that you seemed angry with your snap defensiveness.

And my comment didn't dismiss anything. I was simply pointing out one of many reasons that children don't say the same things when they're adults way more than teens do. You're getting defensive over nothing.

I was not saying it is motivated by vanity. I was implying that the surgery is an extreme attempt to change something a person is not happy with about themselves, rather than an acceptance of who they were born as. In most other instances don't we applaud people for self-love and self-acceptance?

A gay person is born gay. A gay person trying desperately to become straight, undergoing conversion therapy, etc., is denying how they were born.

A quick question: Is it true (as I'd thought) that in the U.S. it's very difficult to get sex change surgery? IOW, the doctors want to make absolutely certain that the applicant has no other issues to be considered first?

Maybe.

Gender isn't your junk.

if one gets a chance to watch goodfellas sometime, peruse the scene where the resturant owner is trying to talk paulie into being his partner. the phrase he uses is "halfafag" this is what the good old boys from italia used to call what we now call transgenders. no disrespct was ever intnded but it described people to a T
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Nope.

This was an interesting article from the former Sports Editor of the LA Times.

http://www.houstonchronicle.com/loca...an-6613274.php

This is very sad http://www.theguardian.com/society/2...ll-male-prison

trans gen is the new gay

That is the agenda, you are right. I am curious why gay rights folk allowed the TG folk on their bandwagon. Can anyone comment?

Compassion?

They understand the prejudice caused by the same silly social norm. Plus they tend not to have that prejudice.

What is the same about their social norm? I do understand there is a subset of gay people (and straight people) that like to pretend to be the opposite gender, without thinking they were born in the wrong body.

Is there a connection beyond this?

Some trans people have birth defects where their genitalia comes out as some kind of hybrid between a penis and a vagina. There's a lot of controversy because doctors will usually remove what they can to basically get as close to a vagina as they can. Then if the kid grows up identifying as a male they're understandably pretty pissed about never taking part in the decision. Also the surgery can kill any ability to have an orgasm.

Based on this and knowing some trans people who were born male but came off in every way imaginable a female, as well as identifying as female for as long as they can remember - I've always assumed it was more of wires getting crossed during sexual organ development vs. any kind of mental issue. Like the brain gets the female blueprint but the organs get a wayward command to go ahead and grow a penis. Or the brain chemistry switches to female after all or some of the penis has formed.

I base this theory on nothing but speculation.

I didn't say their social norm is the same. I said they suffer prejudice from the same social norm.

OK. That makes sense. The same evil people who hate gay people hate trans people. Thanks for the reply.

Also, back when the movement was focusing on things like not having gay bars raided by police, trans people were welcome in the same bars and other social spaces.

Gay and trans weren't always seen as being distinct, by varying amounts of people from all sides.

It's not as much "enemy of my enemy" as you just concluded. It's that both people have rejected gender norms, and have a level of understanding that isn't found elsewhere. Shared perspectives. Or overlapping perspectives, maybe to be more accurate.

another thoughtful response -- thanks

For Gays it could potentially be some pathology in the genes like mentioned in this article.

http://news.sciencemag.org/biology/2...ifications-dna

Also this article mentions effects that can masculize or feminize brains (of oppsite sex).

I think these things should compromise arguments about "Mental illness" for these groups. If some chemistry has happened to the genes this is more physical than mental.

I like explanations like these far better than other traditional arguments (like the mental illness go-to explanation).

Nobody likes to be told there's something "wrong" with them, even if its true.

I'm not sure how familiar people are with "deaf culture" but it's this sect of people who have the idea that being deaf is not a disorder and it should not be viewed as such or treated as such. People who believe in this non-sense are against performing treatments or surgeries on deaf people that will restore their hearing and have been known to harass parents who do it for their deaf children, crap like that.

What it basically comes down to is that some people are dealt a really bad hands in life, to varying degrees, and people need to be compassionate to that. Just as you wouldn't (or shouldn't) mock a kid with Down Syndrome, you shouldn't mock someone with gender problems.

But pretending birth defects and mental disorders aren't actual issues to spare feelings isn't going to help anyone. The whole sensitivity and political correctness craze can threaten scientific research.

With something like Down Syndrome, science has a very good understanding of exactly what went "wrong" so to speak.

It's clear gender identity issues are also some sort of major abnormality afoot. Science is still trying to wrap it's head around what the crux of the issue is and what the best treatments are.

It's possible one day science will indeed be able to legitimately cure things like gender identity disorders and even homosexuality. (I'm talking a real scientific cure, not "pray the gay away"). Gay and trans people get really upset at the idea of their situation being "cured", because they think in order to have acceptance in society they need to be viewed as not having anything wrong or defective with them.

But it's a false choice, in a perfect society people with abnormalities (be it a midget, a deaf person, a gay person, whatever) would not be harassed or shunned or stigmatized and medical science would be there to correct the abnormalities if people so choose.

Abnormalities are not necessarily deformities.

Male brain in a female body... seems science has found a pretty good way to help that...

It's called gender re assignment...

I have absolutely nothing against homosexuals. I swear to god. Good for anyone who is happy. really. I care so little that I have never really bothered to read about the subject accept in the most general terms. It just seems to me that the "born that way" argument is basically a means to justify protected rights and benefits. I mean, couldn't someone, me, you, anyone, get in an orgy after taking some molly at 28 years old, guys and chicks all rolling around, have some guy blow me, really like it, and decide to do it again once in a while? I know a lot of girls who that happens to and most of them don't identify as **** or even bisexual, they just go back to their jobs and husbands/boyfriends until the next time it happens. I think all I am trying to say is own your lifestyle and take pride in the choices you make as an individual instead of taking pride in being born some certain way that you are helpless to contol that gaurantees medical insurance or hospital visitation rights, lol.

But then again it's 2 in the afternoon and I am drunk again.