Two Plus Two Publishing LLC Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
 

Go Back   Two Plus Two Poker Forums > >

Notices

Politics political discourse

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 02-24-2014, 09:54 AM   #76
Barcalounger
veteran
 
Barcalounger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 2,456
Re: The Tragic Death of Net Neutrality

So now Netflix is paying the extortion fee to Comcast for it's protection racket. To "speed up our service" aka "stop targeting our service for slow down".

http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/...aming/5757631/
Barcalounger is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-24-2014, 02:28 PM   #77
grizy
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
grizy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Looking for Rush HU Poker
Posts: 16,006
Re: The Tragic Death of Net Neutrality

Quote:
Originally Posted by LetsGambool View Post
Yeah it's not throttling and it's not clear to me that Verizon is entirely at fault, but I doubt it would happen in a truly competitive market. I wonder if there is a less expansive regulatory fix possible
You are too smart to not understand what verizon is doing amounts to throttling. They are doing it with hardware (or lack of) instead of trafficking rules on routers but it still amounts to throttling NFLX traffic.
grizy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-24-2014, 02:59 PM   #78
LetsGambool
banned
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 26,578
Re: The Tragic Death of Net Neutrality

http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/...91223249896550

Google to get around the paywall, but this article and the network geeks (said affectionately) that Ive asked about it suggest its not throttling. Verizon isnt blameless, they could make hardware upgrades, but that's different to me from discriminatory throttling of last mile data.

Its not clear to me at all that net neutrality rules would even fix disputes like this, are they treating Netflix traffic different than any other data flowing through Cogent?
LetsGambool is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-24-2014, 04:24 PM   #79
grizy
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
grizy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Looking for Rush HU Poker
Posts: 16,006
Re: The Tragic Death of Net Neutrality

It's not throttling in the sense that there are rules built into routers to limit traffic specifically from NFLX.

Consumers paying for streaming "virtually lag-free" (Verizon's words) however doesn't give a crap about that. Verizon has the ability to deliver on that promise by building its connections to Cogent up or participating in NFLX's Open Connect program. It chooses not to. You're way too smart to not understand why this amounts to throttling.

Verizon only resorted to this kind of tactic (allowed under what some considered a loophole with peering agreements) out of necessity. With the rules struck down, their bargaining power in forcing NFLX to pay up increases dramatically.

Last edited by grizy; 02-24-2014 at 04:35 PM.
grizy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-24-2014, 04:43 PM   #80
LetsGambool
banned
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 26,578
Re: The Tragic Death of Net Neutrality

It doesn't amount to throttling, it does amount to a degradation of the end user experience similar to what is seen in throttling. The reason, to me, that difference is not just semantics is that net neutrality or the recently struck down open internet rules clearly prevent throttling. What would they do to prevent this degradation? Comcast is, after all, still operating under open internet rules.

This seems like a different issue based on a combination of the proliferation of streaming changing the typical way the network infrastructure works and the somewhat non-competitive nature of the broadband market making Verizon/Comcast somewhat willing to put an indirect squeeze on Netflix. I dont think net neutrality would fix this issue.
LetsGambool is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-24-2014, 04:54 PM   #81
grizy
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
grizy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Looking for Rush HU Poker
Posts: 16,006
Re: The Tragic Death of Net Neutrality

You have a very very narrow definition of throttling and I am okay with that.

The logical conclusion, in the spirit of net neutrality, is to force ISPs to invest in infrastructure as part of their franchise agreements and licenses. To me, the spirit of "net neutrality" is ISPs should not be allowed to decide what traffic to allow on their networks. They should be required to deliver promised "virtually lag-free" streaming service. And they should do so without using their own customers as hostages trying to extract ransoms from content providers.

Just enforcing current agreements would go a very long way. Verizon for instance took government (federal, state, and local) money promising to build its FiOS network out. By their own admission, they invested large chunks of the "wireline" money into backbone and infrastructure to support their wireless business instead of increasing access to its FiOS network.

I agree I am conflating some issues here. Net neutrality, peering agreements, failure to deliver on promised network are all symptoms of non-competitive nature of the broadband market allowing Verizon/Comcast to put the squeeze on everyone including the consumers, governments, and content providers.

Last edited by grizy; 02-24-2014 at 05:06 PM.
grizy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-24-2014, 05:10 PM   #82
LetsGambool
banned
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 26,578
Re: The Tragic Death of Net Neutrality

Quote:
Originally Posted by grizy View Post
You have a very very narrow definition of throttling and I am okay with that.

The logical conclusion, in the spirit of net neutrality, is to force ISPs to invest in infrastructure as part of their franchise agreements and licenses. To me, the spirit of "net neutrality" is ISPs should not be allowed to decide what traffic to allow on their networks. They should be required to deliver promised "virtually lag-free" streaming service. And they should do so without using their own customers as hostages trying to extract ransoms from content providers.

Just enforcing current agreements would go a very long way. Verizon for instance took government (federal, state, and local) money promising to build its FiOS network out. They have essentially stopped building.

I agree I am conflating some issues here. Net neutrality, peering agreements, failure to deliver on promised network are all symptoms of non-competitive nature of the broadband market allowing Verizon/Comcast to put the squeeze on both the consumers and content providers.
The bolded is a big issue for me. I think 20 Meg service or w/e actually should primarily mean 20 meg service, not 20 meg or "best efforts"

I think id also support public rollout of broadband infrastructure, particularly in underserved areas, perhaps with no one owning the last mile and different providers competing to service the infrastructure, but I have to think it through deeper to make sure its not going to hinder future network investment. Im glad to see Google Fiber poking its nose into more places.

My biggest issue with net neutrality is that Im not convinced that its the right approach to addressing the fundamental issue that broadband markets and the video ecosystem are oligopolistic/monopolistic. I think it is overbroad regulation in some respects, but in other respects fails to touch address anti-competitive, anti-consumer aspects of the business. Id rather take a broader approach to making the industry more competitive so that things like discriminatory throttling would be anathema to a company that tried it.
LetsGambool is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-24-2014, 07:57 PM   #83
grizy
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
grizy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Looking for Rush HU Poker
Posts: 16,006
Re: The Tragic Death of Net Neutrality

We don't live in that world.

Status quo is Verizon/Comcast has government granted (on various levels) monopolies.

We should not allow them to use such monopolies to turn around and put the squeeze on the government and consumers.
grizy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-25-2014, 11:05 PM   #84
yeSpiff
old hand
 
yeSpiff's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: ungovernable ski bum
Posts: 1,216
Re: The Tragic Death of Net Neutrality

Net neutrality's new and improved name; Internet freedom !

How to un**** the internet:
The internet is a utility.
Quote:
"The whole reason we have an independent agency is to shield it from Congress."

But there are no rules shielding the FCC from the companies it’s supposed to regulate, leading to an uncomfortable pattern: FCC commissioners are drawn from the ranks of industry lobbyists, while industry lobbyists are drawn from the ranks of FCC commissioners. Current Chairman Wheeler has served as president and CEO of both the NCTA cable lobby and the CTIA wireless lobby; former Chairman Powell is now the current president and CEO of the NCTA; former Commissioner Meredith Baker, who voted in favor of the Comcast / NBCUniversal merger, is now the head of Comcast’s DC lobbying office.
http://www.theverge.com/2014/2/25/54...rnet-is-****ed

****ed url, just replace with ****.

Ill also leave this link here..
EFF To UN Member States: Protect Individuals Right to Privacy
yeSpiff is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-03-2014, 12:52 PM   #85
Gin 'n Tonic
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Gin 'n Tonic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Reclining my seat
Posts: 6,103
Re: The Tragic Death of Net Neutrality

Quote:
European fans of the open internet can breathe a sigh of relief: the European parliament has passed a major package of telecoms law reform, complete with amendments that properly define and protect net neutrality.
Linky

Also to eliminate roaming mobile phone charges within the EU.
Gin 'n Tonic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-25-2014, 02:10 AM   #86
Huehuecoyotl
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Huehuecoyotl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: It's hard to get by on a smile
Posts: 24,467
Re: The Tragic Death of Net Neutrality

RIP Net Neutrality

Quote:
Some history may help explain the situation. The new rule gives broadband providers what they've wanted for about a decade now: the right to speed up some traffic and degrade others. (With broadband, there is no such thing as accelerating some traffic without degrading other traffic.) We take it for granted that bloggers, start-ups, or nonprofits on an open Internet reach their audiences roughly the same way as everyone else. Now they won’t. They’ll be behind in the queue, watching as companies that can pay tolls to the cable companies speed ahead. The motivation is not complicated. The broadband carriers want to make more money for doing what they already do. Never mind that American carriers already charge some of the world’s highest prices, around sixty dollars or more per month for broadband, a service that costs less than five dollars to provide. To put it mildly, the cable and telephone companies don’t need more money.
Huehuecoyotl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-26-2014, 10:57 AM   #87
Barcalounger
veteran
 
Barcalounger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 2,456
Re: The Tragic Death of Net Neutrality

Some of the blame unsurprisingly goes to the revolving door between these company leaders becoming the lead regulators and vice versa.

http://www.vice.com/read/former-comc...l-the-internet
Barcalounger is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-26-2014, 11:50 AM   #88
Roonil Wazlib
veteran
 
Roonil Wazlib's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: ᕕ( ᐛ )ᕗ
Posts: 3,333
Re: The Tragic Death of Net Neutrality

http://www.vox.com/2014/4/25/5652534...y-the-internet

Pretty good article, too much to really quote anything
Roonil Wazlib is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-26-2014, 02:00 PM   #89
goofyballer
 
goofyballer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 61,899
Re: The Tragic Death of Net Neutrality

From the Vox cards on net neutrality:

Quote:
People disagree about whether or not regulation is needed.

Opponents of regulation argue that if network neutrality is really good for consumers, market forces will cause ISPs to protect it.
hahahahahaha oh wow
goofyballer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-26-2014, 02:05 PM   #90
Roonil Wazlib
veteran
 
Roonil Wazlib's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: ᕕ( ᐛ )ᕗ
Posts: 3,333
Re: The Tragic Death of Net Neutrality

Teach the controversy?
Roonil Wazlib is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-26-2014, 02:23 PM   #91
Chilltown
banned
 
Chilltown's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: The Steppe
Posts: 39,084
Re: The Tragic Death of Net Neutrality

So stupid.

http://www.newyorker.com/online/blog....html?mobify=0

In 2007, at a public forum at Coe College, in Iowa, Presidential candidate Barack Obama was asked about net neutrality. Specifically, “Would you make it a priority in your first year of office to reinstate net neutrality as the law of the land? And would you pledge to only appoint F.C.C. commissioners that support open Internet principles like net neutrality?”

“The answer is yes,” Obama replied. “I am a strong supporter of net neutrality.” Explaining, he said, “What you’ve been seeing is some lobbying that says that the servers and the various portals through which you’re getting information over the Internet should be able to be gatekeepers and to charge different rates to different Web sites…. And that I think destroys one of the best things about the Internet—which is that there is this incredible equality there.”

BROBAMA STRIKES AGAIN

Gotta fight this people. These stupid American policies trickle into Canada sometimes and I don't want to the precedent set
Chilltown is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-28-2014, 12:21 PM   #92
Huehuecoyotl
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Huehuecoyotl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: It's hard to get by on a smile
Posts: 24,467
Quote:
Originally Posted by yeSpiff View Post
Net neutrality's new and improved name; Internet freedom !

How to un**** the internet:
The internet is a utility.

http://www.theverge.com/2014/2/25/54...rnet-is-****ed

****ed url, just replace with ****.

Ill also leave this link here..
EFF To UN Member States: Protect Individuals Right to Privacy
Classifying the net a utility was the easier, best, and only was the government was going to win its case and in spite of literally everyone with an once of knowledge of the subject telling them that they chose not to. It's like government legal incompetence at its most obvious.
Huehuecoyotl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-28-2014, 04:13 PM   #93
Deuces McKracken
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 8,692
Re: The Tragic Death of Net Neutrality

And the sheep just keep calling competence incompetence because they just can't face the truth.
Deuces McKracken is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-01-2014, 09:01 PM   #94
jokerthief
No reason to get excited
 
jokerthief's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Bingo, Bango, Bongo
Posts: 4,743
Re: The Tragic Death of Net Neutrality

Please sign the petition. https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/pet...lV#thank-you=p

Quote:
Reclassify Internet broadband providers as common carriers.

We have benefited enormously from the egalitarian way in which the Internet treats information regardless of type or source, some of the most successful companies in America owe their existence this feature, but the FCC has failed to establish it as policy. Now the FCC has proposed a system that allows broadband providers to discriminate amongst Internet traffic, ensuring special treatment for companies and services of their choosing, the opposite of the neutral Internet that has existed so far. When the court vacated the FCC's weak rules on traffic discrimination in January, the judge gave a specific instruction on how they could ensure a neutral Internet within the boundaries of the law: reclassify Internet broadband providers as "common carriers." We are petitioning for just that.
jokerthief is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-02-2014, 06:53 PM   #95
JoltinJake
Pooh-Bah
 
JoltinJake's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 4,505
Re: The Tragic Death of Net Neutrality

Another great article from Vox: http://www.vox.com/2014/5/2/5665890/...f-the-internet

I ****ing hate monopolies.
JoltinJake is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-02-2014, 07:24 PM   #96
bobman0330
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
bobman0330's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 23,606
Re: The Tragic Death of Net Neutrality

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jake (The Snake) View Post
Another great article from Vox: http://www.vox.com/2014/5/2/5665890/...f-the-internet

I ****ing hate monopolies.
Counterpoint: they cite a computer scientist on monopoly economics.

EDIT:

For example:

Quote:
There's also a danger that large internet service providers will abuse their monopoly power. Most of the leading American broadband companies also sell paid television services that compete directly with online streaming services such as Netflix and Amazon Instant Video. Network owners might be tempted to relegate online video services to the slow lane to prevent them from becoming a competitive threat to their lucrative paid television businesses. Or they might charge competing services a big markup for access to the fast lane, ensuring that they won't be able to undercut them on price.
There is a result in antitrust economics known as the single monopoly profit theorem that says that this specific outcome is impossible. Some people believe that it doesn't hold in all cases, but it's certainly a relevant factor that ought to be considered. But nope, it's straight BIG CORPORATION SO SCARY.

Last edited by bobman0330; 05-02-2014 at 07:30 PM.
bobman0330 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-05-2014, 05:52 PM   #97
suzzer99
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
suzzer99's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: on top of the bell curve
Posts: 84,694
Re: The Tragic Death of Net Neutrality

While I don't think it was justified, I wonder what would have happened if MSFT had been split into Windows, Office and IE. I bet Office and IE would be world's better. Windows would probably be the same.
suzzer99 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-15-2014, 03:56 PM   #98
Cotton Hill
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Cotton Hill's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 12,260
Re: The Tragic Death of Net Neutrality

FCC still plowing ahead with their plans to destroy the internet at Comcast's behest.

Pretty much everyone even remotely principled on both extremes of the political ideology are adamantly against it.

How god awful does an idea have to be when Al Franken and Ted Cruz are both calling it out for being terrible?

The head of the FCC is a freaking ex-telecom industry lobbyist for god's sake.

It's basically like Tony Montana being made head of the DEA.

We really aren't a democracy at all or anything remotely close. People's opinions are meaningless. Special interests really do control everything.

Policy is terrible? Massive public opposition? Massive opposition on both sides of the aisle? The experts in the technology industry agrees it's a bad idea? President promised a few years ago he was totally against it?

PASS IT LDO.
Cotton Hill is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-15-2014, 04:03 PM   #99
schu_22
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
schu_22's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: One yard
Posts: 37,824
Re: The Tragic Death of Net Neutrality

This is so ****ing AIDS

I for one do not welcome our new CABLE AND INTERNET PROVIDER OVERLORDS
schu_22 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-15-2014, 04:13 PM   #100
DeucesAx
adept
 
DeucesAx's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 731
Quote:
Originally Posted by bobman0330 View Post
Counterpoint: they cite a computer scientist on monopoly economics.

EDIT:

For example:



There is a result in antitrust economics known as the single monopoly profit theorem that says that this specific outcome is impossible. Some people believe that it doesn't hold in all cases, but it's certainly a relevant factor that ought to be considered. But nope, it's straight BIG CORPORATION SO SCARY.
Could you elaborate why the outcome shouldn't be possible?

Sent from my SPH-L710 using 2+2 Forums
DeucesAx is offline   Reply With Quote

Reply
      

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 11:05 PM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © 2008-2017, Two Plus Two Interactive
 
 
Poker Players - Streaming Live Online