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Old 11-09-2016, 06:22 PM   #201
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Re: The Tragic Death of the Democratic Party

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Originally Posted by Shuffle View Post
Trade and business do not equal globalization. Trade and business and technology are not going anywhere unless we head into another Dark Ages. But globalization, the process of stripping democratic sovereignty and replacing elected officials with appointed technocrats, is coming to an end. Globalization, as defined by trade deals that hurt most of society and help a small number of society, are coming to an end. Open borders that allow wealthy, secluded 1%'s to benefit for reduced costs and cheaper labor while forcing everyone else to live with the social ramifications, is coming to an end.
You will be singing a different tune when everything goes up 40% so Joe Schmo in Wisconsin can have a good job with no skills.
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Old 11-09-2016, 06:28 PM   #202
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Re: The Tragic Death of the Democratic Party

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Nobody supported Hillary's choice of private email server and her subsequent lies about it.

She got some cover, but in general MSM covered it sufficiently to expose her as an ethical failure.
Yes it's all about ethical standards. Which is why Trump's scam university, stiffing contractors, compulsive lying and pussy grabbing all got a collective shrug from the Rust Belt anger bears - who apparently now hold this country by the balls until enough Boomers die off.
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Old 11-09-2016, 06:28 PM   #203
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Re: The Tragic Death of the Democratic Party

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Exit polls were the worst exit polls in history, according to the actual results, but let's go ahead and continue to cite the exit polls anyway.

Checks out?
Could be wrong but I don't think the final exit polls were off by much. The early exit polls were the ones that were terribad.

Even if they're off somewhat there's no way they're off by that much. Clinton definitely won among people who had the economy as the top issue and Trump definitely won among people who said terrorism or immigration.
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Old 11-09-2016, 06:30 PM   #204
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Re: The Tragic Death of the Democratic Party

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The bright side of this is that it should be abundantly clear to the DNC that rolling out an establishment candidate in the next election cycle is clearly not a recipe for success in this political climate.
But this political climate might not be the climate in 2020.

I guarantee if Dems roll out a Mark Cuban, suddenly his complete lack of political experience is a super huge deal, and trump has like four whole years of experience!
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Old 11-09-2016, 06:30 PM   #205
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Re: The Tragic Death of the Democratic Party

The grocery checkout machine asked if I wanted to donate to veterans. I usually skip those or donate $1, but this time I donated the max amount. The clerk (who was black and looked as bummed/anxious as me) said "thank you for your donation". I said "might as well give it all away since the world is going to end". We both had a cathartic laugh. Gallows humor helps.
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Old 11-09-2016, 06:36 PM   #206
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Re: The Tragic Death of the Democratic Party

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Originally Posted by zoltanbuccos View Post
You will be singing a different tune when everything goes up 40% so Joe Schmo in Wisconsin can have a good job with no skills.
The people that oppose minimum wage increases to $12-$15/hr use the same argument. It is probably the correct point for both scenarios.
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Old 11-09-2016, 06:43 PM   #207
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Re: The Tragic Death of the Democratic Party

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I think the thing that resonated with me is that I, like a lot of young white liberals, have basically walled myself in a big city, in an area surrounded by a bunch of other white liberals.

I've stopped discussing political issues, especially those involving racism with my family members because it's supremely uncomfortable. I've done the same with conservative leaning friends.

I think it's incumbent on white liberals who want to be against racism to make an unrelenting effort to make other white people understand the damages of racism.

I think there's some real truth to the idea that white liberals have walled themselves off from other white people with opposing political views, and this does nothing to fix the problem. It just ignores the problem without ever settling it.
I argue with my family to the degree I can. I call out the racists on chiefsplanet all day, and on the political mailing list I was on which I finally dropped. We're at least doing something by engaging on here.
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Old 11-09-2016, 06:44 PM   #208
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Re: The Tragic Death of the Democratic Party

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OK, but this feels pretty squishy leftist stuff now. And I'm with you, to an extent. But the data about the economic depravity of Trump voters is pretty mixed. In a lot of ways, many (not all) were doing well.

To be glib, you seem to be doing what I described earlier: well, sure, they have the outward appearance of simple haters, but really they are exploited and subconsciously angry about it. They're really rebelling against the elites, no matter how much they fret about the future of America for white children. What they're really anxious about is economic stagnation, what they tell you and what the data says be damned.
So you are saying there are no underlying social economic determinants to two massive no way business as usual voting results.

Trump is actually president.

A bunch of simple haters has metamorphosed into social existence from? and now there is not much we can do about it becuase simple hater gonna simple hater?

All the time in this forum, well educated standard liberal guy who no way voted Trump can be found calling our baby boomers. Its a common occurance.

Why? Because BBs got a massively better deal than we did or at least that is the perception and If SLG who is probably on above average $$$$ can express and perceive some angst about pie share not living up to previous generations pie share, then I think its pretty moot to point out that some of the Trump voters looked like they were doing alright.
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Old 11-09-2016, 06:48 PM   #209
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Re: The Tragic Death of the Democratic Party

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Hard to see Trump's rust belt coalition clamoring for government health care. I'm legit worried we need to sweat Social Security and Medicare as we know it.
I would be shocked if we don't implement the Paul Ryan Medicare gutting.
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Old 11-09-2016, 06:50 PM   #210
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Re: The Tragic Death of the Democratic Party

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Exit polls have Hillary winning by 10 points among people who said the economy was their number one issue. Trump won bigly with people who said immigration or terrorism was most important.

So, yeah, I'm pretty skeptical that economic populism was at the core of all this. Trump's hardcore supporters have always been hateful racist idiots, and they were likely just going along for the ride with the economic stuff. If I'm being kind "dey terk er jerbs" is kind of combining both, so maybe that's it.

That said, I do think he may have added a significant number beyond his base with economic populism. That's certainly possible, even if doesn't explain his core support.
While this might be true overall. The swing votes that counted were basically the rust belt Obama voters who switched to Trump, or just stayed home because they were so turned off by Hillary. I would imagine among that population the economy is the #1 issue.
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Old 11-09-2016, 06:55 PM   #211
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Re: The Tragic Death of the Democratic Party

Cross-posted from the gameday thread, seems like it belongs here anyway.

---
There's no hard data at the end of this thinkpiece so soon after the election to confirm its electoral implications, but we know that D turnout was down. And it explains exactly why Clinton was the wrong choice to turn out rural whites.

https://medium.com/@Brocktoon/lexing...42e#.1edvdi24e

Hint: It's not about safe spaces.


--
She lost almost every county outside the big cities. Just like the competitive rust belt primaries. She was not their candidate.
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Old 11-09-2016, 06:57 PM   #212
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Re: The Tragic Death of the Democratic Party

Its almost like history was not chock full of examples of economic problems creating racism and racial tension and fears about immigration and johny foreigner, which fears about terrorism are merely a modulation of.

Its obviously hard to modulate how big those problems are, given I am looking at this through the lens of two economies.

Obviously things have improved since 2008, but a lot of that improvement has been highly concentrated. Where I live in the UK there has been a massive fall in the working conditions and wages of many middle class peers, mostly because much of the employment here is Public Sector.

They still have jobs, but the conditions and prospects within that job are demonstrably worse than prior to 2008.

Austerity ftw.

Last edited by O.A.F.K.1.1; 11-09-2016 at 07:09 PM.
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Old 11-09-2016, 06:58 PM   #213
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Re: The Tragic Death of the Democratic Party

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Yes it's all about ethical standards. Which is why Trump's scam university, stiffing contractors, compulsive lying and pussy grabbing all got a collective shrug from the Rust Belt anger bears - who apparently now hold this country by the balls until enough Boomers die off.
I am not surprised. Scammers routinely target older people.

Thing is though, me and you in our senility will be just as susceptible and I don't think this is a phenomena that will fade.
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Old 11-09-2016, 07:01 PM   #214
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Re: The Tragic Death of the Democratic Party

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Originally Posted by JoltinJake View Post
Exit polls have Hillary winning by 10 points among people who said the economy was their number one issue. Trump won bigly with people who said immigration or terrorism was most important.
Isn't immigration and economy much the same issue?

The economy is big factor, whatever the exact mix is. And it's those folks who can be pried away from il Duce if the Dems would offer something better than war and bank deregulation.
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Old 11-09-2016, 07:12 PM   #215
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Re: The Tragic Death of the Democratic Party

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Isn't immigration and economy much the same issue?
Could be, I mentioned that as a possibility.
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Old 11-09-2016, 07:14 PM   #216
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Re: The Tragic Death of the Democratic Party

One thing I was really struck by during the Brexit campaign was how hamstrung the Remain camp was in countering the narrative that immigration was heavily impacting the QOL of John Smith in the UK.

The Remain camp could not really go hard in the paint that maybe why public services were feeling a bit strained was due to this thing called Austerity, the clue is in the name.

The PM and the Chancellor, two big hitters for Remain, actually had a vested interest in the its all immigrants fault narrative as it hid the truth of the pain their Austerity policies were causing.
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Old 11-09-2016, 07:23 PM   #217
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Re: The Tragic Death of the Democratic Party

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Originally Posted by Klingbard View Post
Cross-posted from the gameday thread, seems like it belongs here anyway.

---
There's no hard data at the end of this thinkpiece so soon after the election to confirm its electoral implications, but we know that D turnout was down. And it explains exactly why Clinton was the wrong choice to turn out rural whites.

https://medium.com/@Brocktoon/lexing...42e#.1edvdi24e

Hint: It's not about safe spaces.


--
She lost almost every county outside the big cities. Just like the competitive rust belt primaries. She was not their candidate.
So yeah these people happened the swing votes. But w/o the base of Boomers and perfectly well-off suburban racist anger bears like chiefsplanet, Lexington KY doesn't get to decide the election. They're just a sad story in a place that got left behind.
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Old 11-09-2016, 07:26 PM   #218
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Re: The Tragic Death of the Democratic Party

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Its almost like history was not chock full of examples of economic problems creating racism and racial tension and fears about immigration and johny foreigner, which fears about terrorism are merely a modulation of.

Its obviously hard to modulate how big those problems are, given I am looking at this through the lens of two economies.

Obviously things have improved since 2008, but a lot of that improvement has been highly concentrated. Where I live in the UK there has been a massive fall in the working conditions and wages of many middle class peers, mostly because much of the employment here is Public Sector.

They still have jobs, but the conditions and prospects within that job are demonstrably worse than prior to 2008.

Austerity ftw.
The rust belt swing voters are the big story here. But the rest of the GOP base consists of tons of very comfortable people who happen to be on the old side, kinda racist, or just hooked on FoxNews. It's way too easy to paint the entire Trump coalition as a down and out rust belter.
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Old 11-09-2016, 07:32 PM   #219
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Re: The Tragic Death of the Democratic Party

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The rust belt swing voters are the big story here. But the rest of the GOP base consists of tons of very comfortable people who happen to be on the old side, kinda racist, or just hooked on FoxNews. It's way too easy to paint the entire Trump coalition as a down and out rust belter.
I can totally believe that, and it was the same with Brexit, there was a massive swath of angry working class vote for Brexit, but also a huge block of older traditional conservative middle class affluent support.

There is a wider point though, I dont know how its going down in USA, but plenty of Middle Class people in the UK have seen their deal deteriorate since 2008, sure they still have the nice house "good" job etc, but their purchasing power has declined and their pension has got worse, as has their sick pay and holiday entitlement.

These are all people that had become used to the idea that the deal got better and better not worse.

Last edited by O.A.F.K.1.1; 11-09-2016 at 07:48 PM.
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Old 11-09-2016, 07:34 PM   #220
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Re: The Tragic Death of the Democratic Party

1. Fire EVERYONE in the DNC.
2. Bernie new head of DNC.
3. Run an actual progressive candidate in 2020, who fights to get money out of politics. Someone that people can actually get behind and be enthusiastic about voting for.

I saw on CNN pundits talking about Tim Kaine being next in line, LMAO. You want 4 more years of Trump?
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Old 11-09-2016, 07:39 PM   #221
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Re: The Tragic Death of the Democratic Party

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Globalization has massively benefited consumers in first world countries aka everybody who lives there. Every American nominally benefits by having iPhones and shoes and shirts made with labor that costs 15 cents an hour.

This comes at the cost of the jobs of some people, but it's a net positive for developed countries.
If the market is allowing Apple to sell the new iPhone for $600 they are going to sell it for $600 regardless of whether it cost them $5 or $50 to make
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Old 11-09-2016, 07:44 PM   #222
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Re: The Tragic Death of the Democratic Party

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1. Fire EVERYONE in the DNC.
2. Bernie new head of DNC.
3. Run an actual progressive candidate in 2020, who fights to get money out of politics. Someone that people can actually get behind and be enthusiastic about voting for.

I saw on CNN pundits talking about Tim Kaine being next in line, LMAO. You want 4 more years of Trump?
Right? At least Mondale got there
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Old 11-09-2016, 07:47 PM   #223
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Re: The Tragic Death of the Democratic Party

Price of labor and goods is a big part of what determines pricing, though. It may not be as direct with a high end company like Apple, but it gives a baseline for lower-end phones which in turn set the price range for higher-end phones.
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Old 11-09-2016, 08:26 PM   #224
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Re: The Tragic Death of the Democratic Party

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The bright side of this is that it should be abundantly clear to the DNC that rolling out an establishment candidate in the next election cycle is clearly not a recipe for success in this political climate.
I think its pretty crazy to assume that is clear. It was a close election and the Dems are probably going to win the popular vote. Demographic changes alone in 4 years could turn this from an L to a W.
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Old 11-09-2016, 08:27 PM   #225
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Re: The Tragic Death of the Democratic Party

Voter suppression laws are probably coming to more states. We're likely to get a SCOTUS that is amenable to them. The demographic shifts mean squat if its hard/impossible for these people to get to the polls.
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