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Old 11-09-2016, 04:01 PM   #151
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Re: The Tragic Death of the Democratic Party

Just going to drop this here for like 2028. State Senator Jeff Jackson from NC. This guy gets it and is going to be a star in the party in the near future.
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Old 11-09-2016, 04:03 PM   #152
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Re: The Tragic Death of the Democratic Party

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I think there's some real truth to the idea that white liberals have walled themselves off from other white people with opposing political views, and this does nothing to fix the problem. It just ignores the problem without ever settling it.
Yeah, I can agree with you on that.

I dunno if the cause and effect are maybe confused. I live in a big liberal city and a big part of the appeal is just that it's a great, vibrant place to live, I guess the liberal politics part is cool too but it's not the whole reason I live here. And I don't think that guy would suggest his solution is that white liberals start moving to Oklahoma City or Jacksonville or something, or invade the rural areas.

Like Paul said, I don't know how much dialogue can accomplish. A year or two ago I sent my parents The Case for Reparations and discussed it with them and my dad was absolutely not buying it. He's a former fiscal Republican-turned-Democrat in the 90s, voted for Hillary, but if I and TNC can't help him see how black people are still suffering from injustices from discrimination...who can? This tweet is a bit of a response to that:

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Old 11-09-2016, 04:05 PM   #153
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Re: The Tragic Death of the Democratic Party

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The truly grim fact for this morning is that, even if we survive four years of Trump's Visigothic occupation of Washington, there's nothing particularly to look forward to on the horizon. It's abundantly clear that the Dems will pivot further left to the Sanders/Warren wingnut types, and they have nothing really to offer.

In a perfect world, the message that should have sunk Trump is his record of spewing hate towards women and minorities. This is real life though, so the message that was practically going to sink Trump is that everything is going fine and it would be insane to turn the reins of power over to a petty neophyte who may or may not be a pawn of hostile foreign interests. But, crucially, the Dems have robbed themselves of the ability to make that case, largely because they are burrowing into the same rabbit hole that the Tea Party took the GOP down, that the system is hopelessly corrupt, that "neoliberalism" is a cancer, that we need a revolution, etc., etc.

Trump's victory really represents a total victory for the structural critique of capitalism that the left has been pushing for decades. Trade is so toxic that HRC had to walk away from a landmark FTA that she negotiated, even when unemployment is <5% on election day. Take that, global capital! The overlooked part is that the left doesn't really have any alternative to replace the neoliberal order, just a grab-bag of random terrible nonsense policies ($15 min wage, free college, etc.) and a vague hope that we can trim 15% off of our GDP/c and become Germany.

Ironically, the one area where the leftist critique is correct and the system is broken is structural inequality/social justice, and of course that cause has been comprehensively crushed.
truth, and one of the sad ironies of this election was trump using some chart showing productivity rising and wages staying flat that some left-leaning group had created to be deliberately misleading by using two different inflation indexes (iirc).

but i also think it's time to at least acknowledge that neoliberalism, even when it's often right, just doesnt win many fights. it's getting purged everywhere because it cant win elections. i'll miss it and im not sure it's a safe way to go either, but if populist social democracy can win fights against the hard right instead then i can let go of some trade and technocratic fixes.

vox had this article about the left abandoning a perfectly fine carbon tax http://www.vox.com/2016/10/18/130123...tax-washington and my twitter timeline of boring econ nerds obviously ridiculed them, but to me the main takeaway from it seems to be that neoliberal/wonk-y solutions cant win on their own.
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Old 11-09-2016, 04:06 PM   #154
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Re: The Tragic Death of the Democratic Party

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That's dynamite.

Dems can no longer win on a platform of war and bank deregulation.

Time to demand single payer and reemploy the South and rust belt in building a post-petroleum energy system. People will vote for jobs.
I would love to see single payer and more green jobs.
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Old 11-09-2016, 04:13 PM   #155
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Re: The Tragic Death of the Democratic Party

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I can only speak for myself, but it is not my belief that Trump won on that message. I think he won on the message that Clinton is a corrupt criminal plutocrat who did the emails to Benghazi and created ISIS, and that we should definitely do the nationalism, and that Obama sold us out to socialism with the healthcare plan that made your rates higher and is also a secret Muslim... In other words, I think Trump's victory is the triumph of right-wing media more than most other factors, aided by the fact that Clinton was a flawed candidate.
I disagree. My belief is Trump won because of economics and the fact that the rich get richer and the poor get poorer.

The solutions from the democrats seem to be to raise the minimum wage and tax the wealthy more, helping the bottom 20%. The view from the working and middle class,imo,( pretty much one and the same these days) is that although noble, this does nothing to help the majority of Americans.

Trump's platform was bringing back jobs and making companies compete for labor.

Lol at " right wing media"
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Old 11-09-2016, 04:14 PM   #156
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Re: The Tragic Death of the Democratic Party

Goofy,

It's not so much dialogue I think as working towards identifiable solutions.

It's going to take a bit, we're going to have to learn about each other and our motivations in life. Speaking for many in this thread, it's the advancement of all people. Assuming many of our conservative neighbors see things as a bit more short-sighted. Benefits for their family and security.

TNC and reparations do not resonate with white, middle-aged parents. While it's not the ideal political topic to broach, just because you were dismissed doesn't halt the conversation.
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Old 11-09-2016, 04:16 PM   #157
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Re: The Tragic Death of the Democratic Party

Perhaps the other critique I would levy at that guy's tweet series is this: he's asking white people to get white Trump voters to think about other people in the voting booth.

That's really, really, really hard! Tons of people, I'd guess most of them, go into the voting booth and cast votes that are in their self interest. That may not be their specific intention, i.e. they may vote for something that they both think is altruistically right and happens to align with their self interest, but it's still what winds up happening for most people. I think most people who voted for Trump cast that vote thinking they will benefit when he makes America great again.

How on earth do we tell those people "hey, could you do us a favor and think less about yourselves - sorry, yes, we know, your anger in the first place is because you think the elites in society passed you over for others - and think more about others and the problems they face the next time you vote?"

Like, the more I reason this out the more impossible it feels. Having serious conversations with Trump voters about race is never, ever going to result in them being like "oh yeah wow I made some mistakes with my logic there".
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Old 11-09-2016, 04:22 PM   #158
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Re: The Tragic Death of the Democratic Party

Bernie managed to talk to some of these people and the liberals called him a racist and a sexist for it.

Falcon, maybe if the field of democrats included Biden or Warren, but there was an absolutely generic democrat in the race for like 2 minutes.
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Old 11-09-2016, 04:23 PM   #159
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Re: The Tragic Death of the Democratic Party

Maybe Obama covered the weakness of Democratic party. It did well only when he was on the top of the ticket and pretty darn poorly when he is not. I would have wagered a ton of money that their is no way the Democrats wouldn't retain the WH with Obama's approval rating in thru mid 50s which seems to support this argument.
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Old 11-09-2016, 04:23 PM   #160
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Re: The Tragic Death of the Democratic Party

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well named, bobman, OAFK11:

Good posts, but implicit in all of this (and only with slight pushback from huehue) is the notion that what Trump really won on was "economic populism: take back Washington from the Billionaire class (i.e anti-Citizen's united and etc), tax the wealthy, rein in the banks, expand government services..." and the election results were a commentary on neoliberal capitalism.

I'd propose, but not strongly yet -- that this is projection.

Feel like we have some snarky *******s, myself included, trying to tell a bit of a simpler story here: these people are simply hateful idiots. I realize in the end how deeply unsatisfying simple explanations can be. But they're also unflattering to a large extent of our neighbors, our family, our churches, our communities. Especially if you're white, you're undoubtedly surrounded by tons of Trump voters and I have no doubt we've all struggled how to process the fact these people exist and we love them and we have to work and live with them and stuff and so we want to dismiss the simple explanation because it makes our lives easier in a lot of ways. That there's some opaque worries about their jobs and their money and not that we're surrounded by tons of wretched, miserable haters feels better. And you can point to the snarky simple explanation to make some political points about elitism and put yourself on the other side of it, and that feels good. So you get the right-sympathizer pundit class aided by populist leftists like Michael Moore types saying, oh typical liberals, just race-baiting, not seeing the of real picture.

And then we get some decent people like the three of you seeming to implicitly acknowledge that's true. But why?

We're going to have to look at the data over the next week or two or whatever while this settles but I remain skeptical economic populism is a dispositive explanation fueling the global populist rancor. Why not simply global population displacements? Sure, it's part and parcel of the neoliberal capitalism project to tolerate that if not welcome it. But it seems FAR AND AWAY the principle motivating factor here. I liked bobman's allusion to Trump's Visigothic takeover. Seems apt. Because I look and look for the uprising against global capital and I don't see it. What I see is the hoi polloi welcoming a ****ing billionaire real estate baron as emperor, promising mostly an incredibly business/elite friendly culture with some vague allusions to trade as tribute for the host population. Wither the genuine economic populist outrage? When you talk to Trump voters, they don't know ANYTHING about ANY of that. Not a clue. They knew about the wall and the Muslim immigration ban and the transgressive social un-PC stuff and that was it.

So I'll reitreat that I think you gents might be projecting your concerns with the neoliberal capitalist project onto the masses. Maybe I talk to the wrong Trump voters but they don't know **** about anything except for cultural anxieties about Christmas greetings and pressing 2 for Spanish. I'll need some data to point to their motivating factors being economic. But I'm glib enough I might dismiss it anyway so don't waste too much time here.
I want to be clear about what I'm saying. I'm not in any way downplaying the role of racial anxiety to Trump support. I do think, though, that Trump's big political innovation was using open racism to outflank his primary opponents and to paper over his total lack of credentials. It's better to be Mitt Romney than Trump in the general.

The question that really needs answering is how HRC underperformed Obama by 7 million votes though. Wednesday morning quarterbacking aside, she ran a solid campaign with a completely justified "steady hand at the tiller" theme and she had the advantage of everything actually going pretty well, unemployment falling, GDP growing, etc. And you can't plausibly point to racism to explain why a black man got votes that she couldn't. My suggestion is that the story has to do with no one being willing to believe that things are going fine any more. They just know in their bones that everything's going to hell, so the only person they will vote for is the firebrand populist or the man on horseback or the dazzling orator. Anyone but a consensus-building technocratic caretaker.
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Old 11-09-2016, 04:25 PM   #161
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Re: The Tragic Death of the Democratic Party

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Sorry, I didn't spend a few years of my life in an Economic programs to listen to dudes who read Chomsky, listen to bunk economics from politicians, and don't understand economics. Call me arrogant if you will, but I'm sick of the anti-intellectualism of both sides.
Back to touting the econ bachelors.
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Old 11-09-2016, 04:29 PM   #162
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Re: The Tragic Death of the Democratic Party

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I want to be clear about what I'm saying. I'm not in any way downplaying the role of racial anxiety to Trump support. I do think, though, that Trump's big political innovation was using open racism to outflank his primary opponents and to paper over his total lack of credentials. It's better to be Mitt Romney than Trump in the general.

The question that really needs answering is how HRC underperformed Obama by 7 million votes though. Wednesday morning quarterbacking aside, she ran a solid campaign with a completely justified "steady hand at the tiller" theme and she had the advantage of everything actually going pretty well, unemployment falling, GDP growing, etc. And you can't plausibly point to racism to explain why a black man got votes that she couldn't. My suggestion is that the story has to do with no one being willing to believe that things are going fine any more. They just know in their bones that everything's going to hell, so the only person they will vote for is the firebrand populist or the man on horseback or the dazzling orator. Anyone but a consensus-building technocratic caretaker.
I think this answers the question. They didn't make nearly a big enough deal out of the progress we've made over the last 8 years, both economic and social.

Like how many times did you hear HRC tout the unemployment rate, or adding jobs for 78 months straight, or coming closer to a balanced budget?

They ran on a campaign of "I'm not Trump". When people both want Trump and don't want you, that doesn't work.
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Old 11-09-2016, 04:31 PM   #163
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Re: The Tragic Death of the Democratic Party

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We're going to have to look at the data over the next week or two or whatever while this settles but I remain skeptical economic populism is a dispositive explanation fueling the global populist rancor. Why not simply global population displacements? Sure, it's part and parcel of the neoliberal capitalism project to tolerate that if not welcome it. But it seems FAR AND AWAY the principle motivating factor here. I liked bobman's allusion to Trump's Visigothic takeover. Seems apt. Because I look and look for the uprising against global capital and I don't see it. What I see is the hoi polloi welcoming a ****ing billionaire real estate baron as emperor, promising mostly an incredibly business/elite friendly culture with some vague allusions to trade as tribute for the host population. Wither the genuine economic populist outrage? When you talk to Trump voters, they don't know ANYTHING about ANY of that. Not a clue. They knew about the wall and the Muslim immigration ban and the transgressive social un-PC stuff and that was it.

The election of Trump does not have to be mostly about economic populist outrage to have been caused by wider economic social conditions though.

As I said before average Trump voter is going to have little actual objective awareness of the actual social and economic conditions that create them.

They will have a sense that things are not fair, and then Trump/Fox or whoever provides the narratives to explain that sense.

Exploited classes being made to vote against their own self interests by having their exploitation mis represented is centre stage in political history. Its a common occurance.

The elites are in a spot similar to that just after WW2, where it was the left who provided the compromise of social welfare (at least in Europe) that would allow the pie machine to go on making bigger and bigger pies, in complete stability, safe. Pie masters were happy, pie makers were happy. The pie machine could keep on trucking right up to the shocks of the 70s, where the story gets a bit murky.

I think we are broadly in a similar spot now, to remove the fertiliser from the social determinants that make Trump/Brexit possible, there needs to be a bit of pie loving spread around. A good old dose of very palatable feel good factor, you never had it so good. Would not take much loss of pie by the Elites. Pie makes people forget their silly angsts and hatreds. Pie, hmmmmm, Pie.

Time for a New Deal.

Or we could just skip straight to WW3.

Last edited by O.A.F.K.1.1; 11-09-2016 at 04:47 PM.
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Old 11-09-2016, 04:37 PM   #164
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Re: The Tragic Death of the Democratic Party

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You do realize that your economic beliefs have been proven to be a failure by now? This vote doesn't show that to you? What about in a few years when social security and Medicare are bankrupt? Or when the middle class gets hollowed out even more? What about when USTs start to collapse and the world stops buying our debt?

At what point will you accept the fact that your ideas about economics are complete and total bunk, no matter how much time or money you wasted forming them?
You still have yet to refute any of my economic beliefs.
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Old 11-09-2016, 04:40 PM   #165
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Re: The Tragic Death of the Democratic Party

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Perhaps the other critique I would levy at that guy's tweet series is this: he's asking white people to get white Trump voters to think about other people in the voting booth.

That's really, really, really hard! Tons of people, I'd guess most of them, go into the voting booth and cast votes that are in their self interest. That may not be their specific intention, i.e. they may vote for something that they both think is altruistically right and happens to align with their self interest, but it's still what winds up happening for most people. I think most people who voted for Trump cast that vote thinking they will benefit when he makes America great again.

How on earth do we tell those people "hey, could you do us a favor and think less about yourselves - sorry, yes, we know, your anger in the first place is because you think the elites in society passed you over for others - and think more about others and the problems they face the next time you vote?"

Like, the more I reason this out the more impossible it feels. Having serious conversations with Trump voters about race is never, ever going to result in them being like "oh yeah wow I made some mistakes with my logic there".
Wait a minute...... I thought the consensus was that poor, uneducated whites didn't vote their interest. Now you're telling me that they did?
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Old 11-09-2016, 04:41 PM   #166
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Re: The Tragic Death of the Democratic Party

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The election of Trump does not have to be mostly about economic populist outrage to have been caused by wider economic social conditions though.

As I said before average Trump voter is going to have little actual objective awareness of the actual social and economic conditions that create them.

They will have a sense that things are not fair, and then Trump/Fox or whoever provides the narratives to explain that sense.

Exploited classes being made to vote against their own self interests by having their exploitation mis represented is centre stage in political history. Its a common occurance.
So much truth in this post. Preach!
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Old 11-09-2016, 04:42 PM   #167
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Re: The Tragic Death of the Democratic Party

Another Twitter thread (coworker posted it), posting this as a link instead of embedding because it's easier to read in Twitter reply view: https://twitter.com/absurdistwords/s...01496698671104

Kinda got a TNC "we know what we are, that we walk like we are not long for this world" vibe, but fights back against it.

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Wait a minute...... I thought the consensus was that poor, uneducated whites didn't vote their interest. Now you're telling me that they did?
They think they did.
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Old 11-09-2016, 04:47 PM   #168
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Re: The Tragic Death of the Democratic Party

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Wait a minute...... I thought the consensus was that poor, uneducated whites didn't vote their interest. Now you're telling me that they did?
They thought they voted for their own economic interests.

What they actually voted for was a billionaire with the power of an entrenched political party that want to enact tax reforms that decrease taxes on rich people while doing nothing to help poor or working class people.

Jobs are lost to automation and globalization, not immigrants. Automation and globalization aren't going anywhere anytime soon, and Donald Trump will do nothing to stop them.
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Old 11-09-2016, 04:48 PM   #169
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Re: The Tragic Death of the Democratic Party

I was listening to Santorum on PA. He said Obamacare hurt the Ds given the 50 percent premium increases and the party was only offering more government benefits when the people wanted better jobs.
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Old 11-09-2016, 04:56 PM   #170
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Re: The Tragic Death of the Democratic Party

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They thought they voted for their own economic interests.

What they actually voted for was a billionaire with the power of an entrenched political party that want to enact tax reforms that decrease taxes on rich people while doing nothing to help poor or working class people.

Jobs are lost to automation and globalization, not immigrants. Automation and globalization aren't going anywhere anytime soon, and Donald Trump will do nothing to stop them.
Then the American people will just throw another Molotov cocktail at Washington. Donald Trump was the living, breathing Molotov cocktail thrown at the media and the "establishment".

Once you see that. It all makes sense.

Look how close Bernie came to overthrowing Hillary in the primary.

Trump just won his primary. That's it.

You do release that the Congresscriters love their jobs more than anything right? If the GOP has start giving out populist style bennies they will.
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Old 11-09-2016, 04:57 PM   #171
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Re: The Tragic Death of the Democratic Party

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Jobs are lost to automation and globalization, not immigrants. Automation and globalization aren't going anywhere anytime soon, and Donald Trump will do nothing to stop them.
The rest of your post is right, but this is wrong. What do you think immigrants come here for? And in case you were confused about the results of Brexit and last night, globalization is very much coming to an end.
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Old 11-09-2016, 05:00 PM   #172
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Re: The Tragic Death of the Democratic Party

That might be true @ goofy and zimmer. But the rich are getting richer while the rest get poorer. Will that change under President Trump? Maybe, but probably not. But we know damn well it would not have under Clinton. Sanders? Possibly.
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Old 11-09-2016, 05:02 PM   #173
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Re: The Tragic Death of the Democratic Party

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That might be true @ goofy and zimmer. But the rich are getting richer while the rest get poorer. Will that change under President Trump? Maybe, but probably not. But we know damn well it would not have under Clinton. Sanders? Possibly.
Trump: lol no
Clinton: also lol no for structural factors, but things like free college that she borrowed from Sanders would certainly have helped level out inequality for future generations
Sanders: possibly
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Old 11-09-2016, 05:04 PM   #174
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Re: The Tragic Death of the Democratic Party

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The rest of your post is right, but this is wrong. What do you think immigrants come here for? And in case you were confused about the results of Brexit and last night, globalization is very much coming to an end.
A. Immigrants come here to fill jobs that nobody else will do. They work for less than minimum wage because that's still a better life than what they had in their home country. The Ford and Toyota factories in Kentucky and Tennessee and Michigan aren't staffed with illegal immigrants.

B. Globalization is here to stay. The forces of the US Government or the UK Government are not enough to reverse the will of the global business community. Technology and innovation have brought the world closer together and the world will continue to do business with each other more than ever, regardless of what individual governments want.
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Old 11-09-2016, 05:06 PM   #175
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Re: The Tragic Death of the Democratic Party

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It's an enormous win for the tax cuts you love so much. If he gets any sort of meaningful infrastructure bill the deficits will be so large that our balance of payments won't shift, so he probably won't "win" on trade. Hopefully everyone remembers this in four years.
What do deficits matter at this point? We are already past the point of no return. When interest rates return to any sort of normal we are beyond screwed. The only way out now is through printing and inflation.
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