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The Tragic Death of the Democratic Party The Tragic Death of the Democratic Party

08-30-2017 , 02:11 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by batair
Um... you said the people here are an intellectually dishonest group and that is one of your reasons for leaving the dems. Its a piss poor reason.
He just told us other reasons, like the fact that he believes in right-wing rhetoric!
08-30-2017 , 02:12 PM
Man, Lestat going hard in the paint for Republican ideas while claiming to be the one true liberal is too hilarious to ban.

I mean, if I take you at your word that you voted for Hillary, I have to also believe that you are pretty stupid, because she disagrees with tons of your core beliefs.
08-30-2017 , 02:16 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lestat
Appearances are deceiving, aren't they? The right was never dead! The difference is that the conservative party in this country never waivers in towing the line. They never fracture. Their message sucks, but they stick with it and together they are relentless at pounding away at it.
This is obviously false. Numerous GOP Senators and party leaders didn't support Trump in the 2016 general election. The Tea Party/Freedom Caucus wing of the GOP was in more or less open opposition to Boehner for much of his time as Speaker.

Quote:
The Democratic party IS fractured perhaps beyond repair if they don't get their **** together quick. Bernie Sanders should've been the 2016 Democratic nominee. It's all a guessing game now, but I think he easily would've beaten Trump. Why? Because he actually had a message and platform to deliver. The DNC simply anointed HRC and when Trump won the nomination they were licking their chops. The message was: You gotta vote for her because otherwise, Trump!

And in their boundless capacity for stupidity they still can't figure out how HRC lost so they blame it on the fact that all American whites are racists.
Three points.

1) It is impressive to me how so many people here regard running a national presidential campaign as simple and the potential mistakes obvious. Have you ever run a political campaign? Do you have access to the polling data and computer models used by political strategists to make decisions? What is your basis for making these claims?

2) The DNC didn't anoint HRC. If you think this, you don't understand Democratic Party politics. The DNC is a fundraising organization with little influence over presidential primary votes. Instead, Hillary Clinton was a very strong candidate and so few people wanted to challenge her. Clinton herself got other potential nominees to drop out, not the DNC.

3) Except for 2004, with its rally-around-the-flag impact, the Democratic candidate has won the popular vote in every presidential election for almost 30 years, including last year. How is that a fractured party? There is clearly plenty of popular support for the Democratic Party and it policies/leaders. The problem facing the Democratic Party is not a lack of popular support, or even a lack of unity among its leaders or voters, but rather the distributional disadvantages that result in America's federal system from a voter base that is younger, urban, and less white.
08-30-2017 , 02:16 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lestat
Why is it piss poor to want Dems to stick together? What better way is there to accomplish common goals?

I'm definitely not saying that people like Fly are gong to get me to change who I vote for. But I'm an independent now. I'm NOT voting a straight Democratic ticket anymore. I felt good about doing that in the past because I thought Democrats most aligned with my views. But I refuse to call every white person who voted for Trump a racist. I'll call them an unthinking moron, but racist is too harsh of a term in my mind for someone I consider just ignorant on racial issues. Not recognizing white privilege does not equal racist to me. I've had many conversations with people who presented what I felt was a racist view, but didn't realize it. After explaining why it was, most were like, Oh, okay I never though of that. These people are not racist imo and many others overlooked similar racist views in order to vote for Trump.
You've already established you have no idea what the face of racism currently looks like.
08-30-2017 , 03:49 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lestat
I don't resent anything. I simply disagree that every Trump voter is a racist and I think all your white shaming well before the election caused some Dems who were fed up anyway to say **** you and vote Trump to blow up the system and other Dems not to turn out. Oh, and I suppose HRC not being all that exciting also played a role in the low Dem turnout.
so, we agree that some trump voters are racist and actively proliferate racist policies. BUT other trump voters are simply along for the ride, which makes them ... definitely not racist and their american-exceptionalism-snowflake sensibilities would rather not be confronted with liberal policies because that really just sounds like "white shaming" to #realamericans.

GOT IT!
08-30-2017 , 04:20 PM
Oh for ****'s sake

08-30-2017 , 05:12 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lestat
Appearances are deceiving, aren't they? The right was never dead! The difference is that the conservative party in this country never waivers in towing the line. They never fracture. Their message sucks, but they stick with it and together they are relentless at pounding away at it.

The Democratic party IS fractured perhaps beyond repair if they don't get their **** together quick. Bernie Sanders should've been the 2016 Democratic nominee. It's all a guessing game now, but I think he easily would've beaten Trump. Why? Because he actually had a message and platform to deliver. The DNC simply anointed HRC and when Trump won the nomination they were licking their chops. The message was: You gotta vote for her because otherwise, Trump!

And in their boundless capacity for stupidity they still can't figure out how HRC lost so they blame it on the fact that all American whites are racists.
Ohhhh, I see how it is now. Little baby Lestat's boy couldn't win an election against an evil she beast, so instead of doing what was right he decided to burn it all down.
08-30-2017 , 05:18 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lestat
Why is it piss poor to want Dems to stick together?
Jesus this is rich coming from you considering what I just quoted. Every Hillary primary voter I know said "we must stick together and all come together to vote against Trump." A large number of Bernie primary voters I know were in the "Burn it down, not gonna vote for that *****, we got robbed." Bull**** camp.

You're in the latter regardless of who you ultimately voted for. YOU are the one who chose derision and apathy over coming together.
08-30-2017 , 05:29 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Original Position
2) The DNC didn't anoint HRC. If you think this, you don't understand Democratic Party politics. The DNC is a fundraising organization with little influence over presidential primary votes. Instead, Hillary Clinton was a very strong candidate and so few people wanted to challenge her. Clinton herself got other potential nominees to drop out, not the DNC.

3) Except for 2004, with its rally-around-the-flag impact, the Democratic candidate has won the popular vote in every presidential election for almost 30 years, including last year. How is that a fractured party? There is clearly plenty of popular support for the Democratic Party and it policies/leaders. The problem facing the Democratic Party is not a lack of popular support, or even a lack of unity among its leaders or voters, but rather the distributional disadvantages that result in America's federal system from a voter base that is younger, urban, and less white.
It's hilarious that Lestat can't stop spouting GOP talking points even though he totally never ever ever reads or watches anything right wing based guise
08-30-2017 , 05:30 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DVaut1
Oh for ****'s sake

****ing moron.
08-30-2017 , 05:47 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DVaut1
Oh for ****'s sake

I expect to have someone better to vote for than this war hawk in 2018.
08-30-2017 , 05:52 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by master3004
Jesus this is rich coming from you considering what I just quoted. Every Hillary primary voter I know said "we must stick together and all come together to vote against Trump." A large number of Bernie primary voters I know were in the "Burn it down, not gonna vote for that *****, we got robbed." Bull**** camp.

You're in the latter regardless of who you ultimately voted for. YOU are the one who chose derision and apathy over coming together.
Shocking that every Hillary voter wanted everyone to pull together to vote for Hillary!
08-30-2017 , 05:53 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by microbet
I expect to have someone better to vote for than this war hawk in 2018.
Based off of what?
08-30-2017 , 06:01 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Noodle Wazlib
Based off of what?
I don't know who specifically will run, but it's likely someone better than Feinstein will. The primary for Senate in California will have a fairly broad spectrum and the general is between the top two, which will probably be between two democrats as it was for Kamala Harris v Loretta Sanchez. Or perhaps some progressive party or independent.
08-30-2017 , 06:03 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DVaut1
Oh for ****'s sake

i don't agree with him changing to be a good president, but why on earth would you even ask that BS leading question from a sitting senator anyway? JFC!!!

otoh, yes we should prepare for the worst, i.e. living with president id for the whole term.
08-30-2017 , 06:05 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Noodle Wazlib
Based off of what?
She'll proly be so fugly by then, that looking upon her will turn her fellow congress-critters to stone.
08-30-2017 , 06:12 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Original Position
1) It is impressive to me how so many people here regard running a national presidential campaign as simple and the potential mistakes obvious. Have you ever run a political campaign? Do you have access to the polling data and computer models used by political strategists to make decisions? What is your basis for making these claims?
Not defending Lestat here but the polling data and computer models used by political campaigns are often complete garbage. Nate Silver has written about this.

I don't think campaigns should be immune from criticism because they supposedly have access to super secret info or whatever. The Clinton campaign made several strategic mistakes that I think were obvious, and those mistakes were discussed here in real time.
08-30-2017 , 06:16 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shame Trolly !!!1!
She'll proly be so fugly by then, that looking upon her will turn her fellow congress-critters to stone.
This post could appear on Trump's twitter feed.
08-30-2017 , 08:03 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DVaut1
Oh for ****'s sake

i hate that woman so much, she is ****ing worthless and stupid as ****
08-30-2017 , 08:05 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by JoltinJake
Not defending Lestat here but the polling data and computer models used by political campaigns are often complete garbage. Nate Silver has written about this.

I don't think campaigns should be immune from criticism because they supposedly have access to super secret info or whatever. The Clinton campaign made several strategic mistakes that I think were obvious, and those mistakes were discussed here in real time.
who the **** out of hillary supporters/dems itt has EVER alleged that the clinton campaign didn't make several strategic mistakes?
08-30-2017 , 09:02 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DVaut1
Oh for ****'s sake

I dont even
08-30-2017 , 09:15 PM
I want to point out that one big tell that let's us know Lestat is full of **** is that while we, actual leftists and actual liberals, tend to criticize Clinton for doing things that we thought were mistakes...

Lestat's big issues with Clinton are literally right wing fiction, ripped from Trump stump speeches.

That's the thing that we go back to over and over again. If Lestat is telling the truth about everything it is BAFFLING that he voted for more food stamps to buy black votes and doing the Benghazi and racial divisiveness and not repealing Obamacare.

Last edited by FlyWf; 08-30-2017 at 09:22 PM.
08-31-2017 , 12:17 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Original Position
...

Three points.

1) It is impressive to me how so many people here regard running a... campaign as simple and the potential mistakes obvious.

2) The DNC didn't anoint HRC. If you think this, you don't understand Democratic Party politics...

3) ... How is that a fractured party?... The problem facing the Democratic Party is not a lack of popular support, or even a lack of unity among its leaders or voters, but rather the distributional disadvantages that result in America's federal system from a voter base that is younger, urban, and less white.
As an outsider, this is all impressive to me too. The strength of the Party brand is measured in holding market share of registrations, and holding market share in votes cast. The Donkeys are the dominant team. It's not even close.

Since the Vietnam War era, the Donkeys have relied primarily on transparent, open, and competitive primaries to democratically anoint their team for POTUSBOWL. This most recent POTUSBOWL, it worked perfectly as advertised. The most qualified, experienced, and popular Donkeys got on the team. Contrast this with the Elephants, whose primary process failed so catastrophically, that they ended up anointing the candlestick in the conservatory.

The problem is the Donkeys do indeed have a real and permanent structural disadvantage, which is baked not only into US federalism, but also into the underlying geographical based representational system itself.

Again, as an outsider, the take-away to me seems obvious: the problems the Donkeys are having are caused by the way the party itself is internally structured... and not by any failure of the "optics"/etc.

Last edited by Shame Trolly !!!1!; 08-31-2017 at 12:22 PM.
08-31-2017 , 01:52 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lestat
Why is it piss poor to want Dems to stick together? What better way is there to accomplish common goals?

I'm definitely not saying that people like Fly are gong to get me to change who I vote for. But I'm an independent now. I'm NOT voting a straight Democratic ticket anymore. I felt good about doing that in the past because I thought Democrats most aligned with my views. But I refuse to call every white person who voted for Trump a racist. I'll call them an unthinking moron, but racist is too harsh of a term in my mind for someone I consider just ignorant on racial issues. Not recognizing white privilege does not equal racist to me. I've had many conversations with people who presented what I felt was a racist view, but didn't realize it. After explaining why it was, most were like, Oh, okay I never though of that. These people are not racist imo and many others overlooked similar racist views in order to vote for Trump.
Basically like a slightly smarter, slightly less racist version of wil
08-31-2017 , 02:05 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lestat
Why is it piss poor to want Dems to stick together? What better way is there to accomplish common goals?

I'm definitely not saying that people like Fly are gong to get me to change who I vote for. But I'm an independent now. I'm NOT voting a straight Democratic ticket anymore. I felt good about doing that in the past because I thought Democrats most aligned with my views. But I refuse to call every white person who voted for Trump a racist. I'll call them an unthinking moron, but racist is too harsh of a term in my mind for someone I consider just ignorant on racial issues. Not recognizing white privilege does not equal racist to me. I've had many conversations with people who presented what I felt was a racist view, but didn't realize it. After explaining why it was, most were like, Oh, okay I never though of that. These people are not racist imo and many others overlooked similar racist views in order to vote for Trump.
I'm not sure why the difference between yours and FlyWf's tactics would move you to change your voting pattern or even call yourself different than a Democrat. The Democratic Party encompasses a range of people from people who think Trumpkins are onto something about minorites and the public opinion should sway to more critically look at minorities to those who won't even read books by white authors and talk about decolonizing themselves.

      
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