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Old 01-18-2017, 07:13 PM   #2601
sylar
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Re: The Tragic Death of the Democratic Party

so "something [on UBI/healthcare/education] beats nothing", but you are still talking about work emails that showed approximately no wrongdoing?
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Old 01-18-2017, 07:27 PM   #2602
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Re: The Tragic Death of the Democratic Party

He's concern trolling of course. Not sure why some people haven't caught on.
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Old 01-18-2017, 07:36 PM   #2603
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Re: The Tragic Death of the Democratic Party

Quote:
Originally Posted by HastenDan View Post
Yeah if only more people had stuck their head in the sand regarding valid criticisms of Clinton as a candidate and the actions of her campaign, and more people had disregarded the real threat and chance of a Trump victory then something something something Trump
You made an account like 6 weeks after the DNC, Bernie was literally out stumping for Hillary, and you were in here getting your ****ing popcorn looking into ****ing Pizzagate.

If I was you I would be, like I said, absolutely wracked with grief that all my smug libtard owning with out-of-context Wikileaks quotes and insane conspiracy **** might have in some small way contributed to Obama 2008 voters deciding that Hillary and Trump were both just as bad.

But instead you're, too this day, owning libtards about Obama's foreign policy. Literally the same ****ing schtick.

The tragic death of Democratic party has absolutely nothing to do with attracting "people" like Dan. They are not good activists, they aren't good allies, and they can't be relied upon because you never know when he'll see some spicy memes or really well done utoobz and go back to being a libertarian.

Last edited by FlyWf; 01-18-2017 at 07:45 PM.
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Old 01-18-2017, 09:20 PM   #2604
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Re: The Tragic Death of the Democratic Party

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Originally Posted by HastenDan View Post
Yeah if only more people had stuck their head in the sand regarding valid criticisms of Clinton as a candidate and the actions of her campaign,
^^^ this

is the opposite of

this vvv

Quote:
and more people had disregarded the real threat and chance of a Trump victory
You see that right? You had your head in the sand searching for secret emails.


Quote:
then something something something Trump

You talk about corporate-friendly neoliberalism while an actual corporatist fascist won the white house.
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Old 01-19-2017, 12:46 AM   #2605
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Re: The Tragic Death of the Democratic Party

Damn, y'all are really going back to the arguments from the primary now!! If I recall correctly the Lewis statement about Sanders and Clinton directly contradicted what he wrote in a book about when he first met the Clintons so either in the book or in his statement he was full of it. To me this was politics to minimize that Bernie had really fought for civil rights from a young age while Clinton didn't have that kind of record. The headlines were horrible for Bernie and it's not like he could attack Lewis for what was said as that would've looked even worse so he gave an I got nothing but respect for Lewis spiel and moved on. Lewis some days later clarified his comments that just because he didn't meet Sanders it didn't mean Sanders wasn't there but by that point the damage was done. He also clarified his Clinton statement to more closely resemble what he wrote in the book. http://www.msnbc.com/msnbc/john-lewi...bernie-sanders
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Old 01-19-2017, 12:58 AM   #2606
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Re: The Tragic Death of the Democratic Party

The way you guys keep writing "the damage was done" and **** really makes it seem like you think Lewis owed some duty of being nice to a guy he wasn't endorsing. Were you guys also playing ombudsman over every statement about Clinton made by Sanders endorsees?

It's bizarre. We just went through a campaign where Trump accused Ted Cruz's dad of killing JFK and you're still holding a grudge over this ****?

Get the **** out of here with this ****. "My political opponents are saying things that, well, they are true, per se, but they aren't as flattering to me as I'd prefer"??
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Old 01-19-2017, 01:03 AM   #2607
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Re: The Tragic Death of the Democratic Party

*sigh* economics is the way out for democrats. if minorities are going to become so embittered that they're not point 1 on the agenda that they'll also vote against their interests then we as a country are just plain screwed.
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Old 01-19-2017, 01:11 AM   #2608
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Re: The Tragic Death of the Democratic Party

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The way you guys keep writing "the damage was done" and **** really makes it seem like you think Lewis owed some duty of being nice to a guy he wasn't endorsing. Were you guys also playing ombudsman over every statement about Clinton made by Sanders endorsees?

It's bizarre. We just went through a campaign where Trump accused Ted Cruz's dad of killing JFK and you're still holding a grudge over this ****?

Get the **** out of here with this ****. "My political opponents are saying things that, well, they are true, per se, but they aren't as flattering to me as I'd prefer"??
I don't think Lewis or anyone owes anything to anybody nor do they have to fight the game based on a set of principles. I think the way he went about it was obvious politics and was meant to minimize the very real record Sanders has of fighting for civil rights that was better than Clinton's. Regardless, I was just surprised to check in on the thread and see arguments about something that was so long ago so I rehashed my memory about what happened. I have no grudge towards Lewis as he clearly, like most, thought Hillary was gonna win and played the game to set up for that.
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Old 01-19-2017, 01:14 AM   #2609
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Re: The Tragic Death of the Democratic Party

Lol that europd is holding a grudge about it. He's not ' you guys ' and he gets more than one post on it after trolls made a hundred posts on it before it's bizarre as if it's some obsession he won't let go of.
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Old 01-19-2017, 01:14 AM   #2610
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Re: The Tragic Death of the Democratic Party

Quote:
Originally Posted by sportsjefe View Post
*sigh* economics is the way out for democrats. if minorities are going to become so embittered that they're not point 1 on the agenda that they'll also vote against their interests then we as a country are just plain screwed.
There's no question the way forward is making inclusive appeals to the material well-being of the electorate, but this faux naivete of pretending Clinton and the DNC were doing something underhanded or inappropriate by playing "obvious politics" is really harmful because it plays into Trump's nihilistic "drain the swamp" ****.

It is absolutely critical that our next batch of candidates make the case that government can and will do good things, this **** where random everyday politics is seen as corrupt was CRITICAL to what killed Clinton's favorability.
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Old 01-19-2017, 01:17 AM   #2611
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Re: The Tragic Death of the Democratic Party

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Originally Posted by Noze View Post
Wouldnt put it past ikes to buy a new computer, especially since I though he said he was moving anyway.
new computer wouldn't do anything. They aren't tracking mac addresses. Resetting his modem could be enough to get a new IP address though. Or changing carriers.
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Old 01-19-2017, 01:18 AM   #2612
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Re: The Tragic Death of the Democratic Party

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Lol that europd is holding a grudge about it. He's not ' you guys ' and he gets more than one post on it after trolls made a hundred posts on it before it's bizarre as if it's some obsession he won't let go of.
Confused as all hell as to what you wrote here!?
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Old 01-19-2017, 01:25 AM   #2613
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Re: The Tragic Death of the Democratic Party

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Confused as all hell as to what you wrote here!?
I was responding to Fly and getting your back.

You are not "you guys" and the fact that you responded after all the ****ty posts in this thread between him and Dan is not you holding a grudge. It's you reading the thread and having a completely reasonable comment about what is happening right now in this thread.
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Old 01-19-2017, 01:26 AM   #2614
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Re: The Tragic Death of the Democratic Party

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I was responding to Fly and getting your back.

You are not "you guys" and the fact that you responded after all the ****ty posts in this thread between him and Dan is not you holding a grudge. It's you reading the thread and having a completely reasonable comment about what is happening right now in this thread.
oh, thanks for clarifying!
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Old 01-19-2017, 07:47 AM   #2615
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Re: The Tragic Death of the Democratic Party

Grunching:

Quote:
Originally Posted by BoredSocial View Post
It's Kansas. It was pretty ****ty before they took over too. Let them take a good hard swing at entitlements. They need a massive reform one way or the other so them actually connecting and getting what they want for a year or three isn't going to have any more long term impact than Obamacare.
Basically the pushback in this thread is that eliminating Medicare would be undesirable, pointing out the merits of Medicare. Of course reforming Medicare to increase the probability it remains sustainable is what he's arguing for. He didn't indicate that he wants to eliminate Medicare and he certainly didn't argue that there is no merit to the entitlement.

#creatingstrawmenftw
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Old 01-19-2017, 11:33 AM   #2616
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Re: The Tragic Death of the Democratic Party

Entitlements in the US are already pretty piss poor and Republicans want to roll them back even further. We can be generous and say that because Republicans have an ideological commitment to make sure the wealthy are taxed less and receive more income they cannot commit to easy ways to make Medicare "sustainable". Of course there are other programs which never run into the sustainability question, namely the military although they too have outlays. So why does Medicare continuously need to be sustainable, but the military doesn't? What's the difference? The answer is Medicare is seen as an entitlement and entitlements are always unsustainable and because the prior that Republicans cannot commit to more taxation in favor of entitlements the ratchet can only go one way, down.

So we could say that people might abstractly believe in the idea of Medicare but in reality making it as small as possible is the end goal. Does that mean that, in reality, people don't care about Medicare? I think it does. There's a whole shell game, millions of dollars, reams of paper dedicated to removing money from it, how does so much get dedicated to something that someone simply wants to make sustainable and could easily be done?

So I'd have to ask why all the sophistry if they're simply trying to make Medicare sustainable?

Last edited by Huehuecoyotl; 01-19-2017 at 11:56 AM.
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Old 01-19-2017, 01:45 PM   #2617
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Re: The Tragic Death of the Democratic Party

Pretty sure Hillary didn't lie about turning over all work related emails either, Dan.
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Old 01-19-2017, 03:42 PM   #2618
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Re: The Tragic Death of the Democratic Party

Quote:
Originally Posted by Huehuecoyotl View Post
Entitlements in the US are already pretty piss poor and Republicans want to roll them back even further. We can be generous and say that because Republicans have an ideological commitment to make sure the wealthy are taxed less and receive more income they cannot commit to easy ways to make Medicare "sustainable". Of course there are other programs which never run into the sustainability question, namely the military although they too have outlays. So why does Medicare continuously need to be sustainable, but the military doesn't? What's the difference? The answer is Medicare is seen as an entitlement and entitlements are always unsustainable and because the prior that Republicans cannot commit to more taxation in favor of entitlements the ratchet can only go one way, down.

So we could say that people might abstractly believe in the idea of Medicare but in reality making it as small as possible is the end goal. Does that mean that, in reality, people don't care about Medicare? I think it does. There's a whole shell game, millions of dollars, reams of paper dedicated to removing money from it, how does so much get dedicated to something that someone simply wants to make sustainable and could easily be done?

So I'd have to ask why all the sophistry if they're simply trying to make Medicare sustainable?
First of all the difference between an entitlement like Medicare and a discretionary spending item like defense is that defense spending is subject to year to year budgeting while Medicare is not. Second of all I invite you to read the CBO reports on what their models indicate for the solvency of Medicare. Third I invite you to go over how the govt does the accounting for Medicare. After reviewing the CBO reports and Medicare accounting you may come to the conclusion that Medicare unchanged is totally sustainable. That's cool. Then you can point out to BoredSocial why he is wrong.

I will state that entitlement outlays are an ongoing increasing portion of Federal govt budget.
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Old 01-19-2017, 03:52 PM   #2619
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Re: The Tragic Death of the Democratic Party

That's pretty dishonest.

The R's refuses to raise government revenue
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Old 01-19-2017, 03:54 PM   #2620
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Re: The Tragic Death of the Democratic Party

Quote:
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First of all the difference between an entitlement like Medicare and a discretionary spending item like defense is that defense spending is subject to year to year budgeting while Medicare is not. Second of all I invite you to read the CBO reports on what their models indicate for the solvency of Medicare. Third I invite you to go over how the govt does the accounting for Medicare. After reviewing the CBO reports and Medicare accounting you may come to the conclusion that Medicare unchanged is totally sustainable. That's cool. Then you can point out to BoredSocial why he is wrong.

I will state that entitlement outlays are an ongoing increasing portion of Federal govt budget.
Yea this is what I mean about sophistry. Seattlelou said the same thing. All of what you said is true, but not relevant to the "solvency" issue. We could easily convert discretionary spending to entitlement spending and vice versa, they're just budgetary distinctions, but not relevant to "is there enough money to spend on this thing?". The answer to Medicare, like the military, is yes, easily. The military has spent a ton dollars on a plane that doesn't even work, but it's some breaking a taboo for Trump to finally say we might have a bloated military budget (that he's going to increase), and yet we hear endless stories about people on food stamps eating salmon.
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Old 01-19-2017, 03:58 PM   #2621
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Re: The Tragic Death of the Democratic Party

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Yea this is what I mean about sophistry. Seattlelou said the same thing. All of what you said is true, but not relevant to the "solvency" issue. We could easily convert discretionary spending to entitlement spending and vice versa, they're just budgetary distinctions, but not relevant to "is there enough money to spend on this thing?". The answer to Medicare, like the military, is yes, easily. The military has spent over a ton dollars on a plane that doesn't even work, but we hear endless stories about people on food stamps eating salmon.
I thought it was lobster???? I don't understand why people get a lot more pissed off about some poor person taking advantage of the system for whatever small amount as opposed to the very wealthy taking advantage for large amounts. Is it because it's easier to look down on the poor person instead of fighting people with power or what?
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Old 01-20-2017, 09:37 AM   #2622
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Re: The Tragic Death of the Democratic Party

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I thought it was lobster???? I don't understand why people get a lot more pissed off about some poor person taking advantage of the system for whatever small amount as opposed to the very wealthy taking advantage for large amounts. Is it because it's easier to look down on the poor person instead of fighting people with power or what?
People who desperately want to find a sub-demographic of liberals to blame Trump on would be better served targeting their ire on the willfully naive gormless "kumbaya" crowd than the tumblristas.
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Old 01-20-2017, 10:53 AM   #2623
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Re: The Tragic Death of the Democratic Party

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People who desperately want to find a sub-demographic of liberals to blame Trump on would be better served targeting their ire on the willfully naive gormless "kumbaya" crowd than the tumblristas.
You say that like it was hippies or something, but if there's any truth in your post it's about liberals who cooperate with reactionaries. That'd be the conservative dem Clinton camp who just have a lot in common with the GOP and the genius pragmatists like Obama who start the negotiation at compromise.

And around here, the smart professional class so eager to make sure people know they think things like OWS and noDAPL are pointless and stupid.

Last edited by microbet; 01-20-2017 at 11:07 AM.
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Old 01-20-2017, 01:54 PM   #2624
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Re: The Tragic Death of the Democratic Party

OWS was pointless and stupid and everyone involved should be ashamed of the way they let it get co-opted by the mentally ill and the fringe to do NOTHING instead of channeling it into political activism
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Old 01-20-2017, 02:41 PM   #2625
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Re: The Tragic Death of the Democratic Party

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OWS was pointless and stupid and everyone involved should be ashamed of the way they let it get co-opted by the mentally ill and the fringe to do NOTHING instead of channeling it into political activism
this, obviously

it needed leadership, too
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